Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c3) with ESMTP id 817254 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:11:05 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j2NHAHCi025460 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:10:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001401c52fcb$33055060$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:10:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C52FA1.49D71640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C52FA1.49D71640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to my knowledge, Jerry. Regardless of how it gets into the = combustion chamber, amount of gasoline burned =3D power produced. I used = 0.55 for all my calculations and that always seemed to get me right on = the money. I would say stick with the 41 lbs ones - if you should be = so fortunate to later find you need 50 lb/hr or higher, hurry to the = nearest auto store with a big wide grin {:>) and buy the bigger ones and = I'll buy the 460 cc/min ones from you. How's that for a deal? Ed A From: Jerry Hey=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:46 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Thanks Ed, is there any reason not to trust the standard formulas for = determining injector size for the rotary? I ask only because running = those formulas the #42 seems to be just about right for my p port (220 = hp) unless the BSFC goes above .60. Eighty per cent duty cycle is 41 = lbs. With a lower BSFC no problem at all, of course. I was surprised to = learn that the 42 lb injectors were stock on older 13B NA. Does this = point to a higher BSFC than recips? Jerry On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Jerry, the older 13B NA (post 1986) used 460 cc/min (Peak and Hold - = Low resistance) injectors approx 42 lbs/hr (this is what I fly with). = The first turbo units used 550 cc/min injectors (saturated types - = higher resistance), I have flown with these but found I did not like the = idle as well as the 460 cc/min units so reverted. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Hey To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Mark, is your engine a N/A 13B? Do the 550s equate to a little more = than 50 lbs/hr? That is hugh. Did you find the 42 lb/hr injectors to be = too small? Lastly, can someone tell me the size of the stock Mazda = injectors? Thanks, Jerry On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 09:25 AM, Mark R Steitle wrote: Jerry, I bought a set of eight 42# Ford injectors but in the end, wasn=92t = able to use them and went with the 550=92s.. I gave $320 for the set = and would let them go for my cost. I=92ll split the set if someone else = wants the other four. They have about 5 hours on them. If you=92re = interested contact me off line.=20 =20 Mark S. =20 mark.steitle&Austin.utexas.edu (replace & with @) From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf OfJerry Hey Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:12 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses =20 Ken, after spending the day calculating injector sizes, I ended up = coming to the same conclusion that you did. The Ford 42 lb are perfect = for my application. P.L. recommended 50 lb injectors but for 225 hp they = are too much in my opinion. Unfortunately Ford Racing is out of stock. = Damn. Jerry On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net = wrote: =20 Jerry, the Ford injectors are not directly compatible. Here are the = details:=20 ENGINE SIDE FUEL RAIL SIDE Ford 0.55" 0.55 =20 Mazda 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber ring) 0.435 Note that the electrical connector is the same (center spline = top/inside and center lower outside). So, the Ford injector will hook = up electrically but the fuel connectors must be different. Ken Powell Bryant, Arkansas 501-847-4721 =20 =20 -------------- Original message -------------- =20 > Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda > injectors as far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a = part > number? BTW sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500 > rpm and only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net = wrote: > > > But this graph was for a carburated engine so it really > proves nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as rich as we > want to run - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I know, = if > you run it into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I > have not seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a = NA > engine and with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If > anyone can educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm = trying > to learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my = P-Port > motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at = 7500 > RPM). > > Ken Powell > > Bryant, Arkansas > > 501-847-4721 > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) = } > > Arial0000,0000,8080Rus > ty, > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Are > you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end = by > using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) = indicates > that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm bsfc = will > be up around .60. What does that do to your hp numbers? > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > smaller> > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Mar > k > S. > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > smaller> > > >< > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > smaller> > > >< > > Times New Roman > > =20 > > From:Rotary motors in > aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf > OfRussell Duffy > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive > losses > > > Times New Roman > > > Times New RomanRC Engineering's calcs show > that you are good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and > 100% duty cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at 100% > (except maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to = aircraft). > So at 80% duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 = HP. > Enjoy your idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port > and turn at least 8000 RPM. > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi > Ken, > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC > Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator that I > posted the other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty cycle, = .55 > BSFC, should be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine = that > will be enough for the current engine, but not by a wide margin. I > plan to run this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be > amazed if I can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for > these rpms :-) > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000On > the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it = gives a > HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate for > the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on this > spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for our redrive, and > prop? > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers, > or> > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty > (hoping Ed out types me) > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000 > fontfamily> > > > < =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C52FA1.49D71640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not to my knowledge, Jerry.  = Regardless of how=20 it gets into the combustion chamber, amount of gasoline burned =3D power = produced. I used 0.55 for all my calculations and that always = seemed to get=20 me right on the money.   I would say stick with the 41 = lbs ones -=20 if you should be so fortunate to later  find you need 50 lb/hr or = higher,=20 hurry to the nearest auto store with a big wide = grin {:>) and buy=20 the bigger ones and I'll buy the 460 cc/min ones from you.  = How's that=20 for a deal?
 
Ed A
 
 
From: Jerry Hey
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 = 11:46=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel = injector=20 size, and redrive losses

Thanks Ed, is there any reason not to trust the = standard=20 formulas for determining injector size for the rotary? I ask only = because=20 running those formulas the #42 seems to be just about right for my p = port (220=20 hp) unless the BSFC goes above .60. Eighty per cent duty cycle is 41 = lbs. With=20 a lower BSFC no problem at all, of course. I was surprised to learn = that the=20 42 lb injectors were stock on older 13B NA. Does this point to a = higher BSFC=20 than recips? Jerry



On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at = 10:58 AM,=20 Ed Anderson wrote:

Jerry, the older 13B = NA=20 (post 1986) used 460 cc/min (Peak and Hold - Low=20 resistance) injectors approx 42 lbs/hr (this is what I fly = with). =20 The first turbo units used 550 cc/min injectors (saturated types - = higher=20 resistance), I have flown with these but found I did not like the = idle as=20 well as the 460 cc/min units so=20 reverted.
 
Ed=20 A

----- Original Message=20 -----
From: Jerry=20 Hey
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, = 2005=20 10:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and = redrive=20 losses

Mark, is your engine a N/A 13B? Do the 550s equate to = a little=20 more than 50 lbs/hr? That is hugh. Did you find the 42 lb/hr = injectors to be=20 too small? Lastly, can someone tell me the size of the stock Mazda=20 injectors? Thanks, Jerry


On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at = 09:25=20 AM, Mark R Steitle wrote:

Jerry,

I bought a set of = eight 42#=20 Ford injectors but in the end, wasn=92t able to use them and went = with the=20 550=92s..  I gave $320 for the set and would let them go for my = cost.=20  I=92ll split the set if someone else wants the other four. =  They=20 have about 5 hours on them.  If you=92re interested contact me = off=20 line. 

 

Mark S.=20   

mark.steitle&Austin.utexas.edu (replace = & =20 with = @)

<image.tiff>




From:Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = OfJerry Hey
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:12=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses

 

Ken, = after=20 spending the day calculating injector sizes, I ended up coming to = the same=20 conclusion that you did. The Ford 42 lb are perfect for my = application. P.L.=20 recommended 50 lb injectors but for 225 hp they are too much in my = opinion.=20 Unfortunately Ford Racing is out of stock. Damn. = Jerry



On=20 Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net=20 wrote:

 

Jerry, the Ford injectors are not = directly=20 compatible.  Here are the=20 = details: 

        &nb= sp;  =20 ENGINE SIDE     FUEL RAIL=20 = SIDE

Ford         =20 = 0.55"           &n= bsp;        =20 = 0.55     

Mazda    &n= bsp; =20 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber=20 = ring)

          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           =20 0.435

Note that the electrical connector is the same (center = spline=20 top/inside and center lower outside).  So, the Ford injector = will hook=20 up electrically but the fuel connectors must be = different.

Ken=20 Powell

Bryant,=20 = Arkansas

501-847-4721

 

 

---------= -----=20 Original message --------------

 

> Ken, are = the Ford=20 injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda

> injectors = as far=20 as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a part

> = number? BTW=20 sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500

> = rpm and=20 only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240?=20 = Jerry

>

>

>

>

>

= >=20 On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net=20 wrote:

>

>

> But this graph was for a=20 carburated engine so it really

> proves nothing. Besides, = the=20 engine only needs to be as rich as we

> want to run - you = can't=20 hurt the engine by running lean (I know, if

> you run it = into the=20 trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I

> have not = seen any=20 graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a NA

> = engine and=20 with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If

> = anyone can=20 educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm = trying

> to=20 learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my = P-Port

>=20 motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at=20 7500

> RPM).

>

> Ken=20 Powell

>

> Bryant, = Arkansas

>

>=20 = 501-847-4721

>

>

>

>

> = -------------- Original message=20 --------------

>

>

> v\:*=20 {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

>=20 w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape

>=20 {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui)=20 }

>

> Arial0000,0000,8080Rus

>=20 ty,

>

>

> = Arial0000,0000,8080Are

>=20 you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end=20 by

> using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other = list)=20 indicates

> that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but = at 8000=20 rpm bsfc will

> be up around .60. What does that do to = your hp=20 numbers?

>

>

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080

>=20 smaller>

>

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080Mar

> k

>=20 S.

>

>

> = Arial0000,0000,8080

>=20 = smaller>

>

>

><

>

&g= t;

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080

>=20 = smaller>

>

>

><

>

&g= t;

Times=20 New = Roman

>

>

 

>

>=20 From:Rotary motors in

> aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf

> OfRussell = Duffy

>

> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25=20 PM

>

> To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft

>

> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel = injector=20 size, and redrive

> = losses

>

>

>=20 Times New Roman

>

>

> Times New = RomanRC=20 Engineering's calcs show

> that you are good to 302 HP at = 43 psi=20 fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and

> 100% duty cycle. Of course = you=20 can't run the injectors at 100%

> (except maybe briefly = like a=20 drag race, not applicable to aircraft).

> So at 80% duty = cycle the=20 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 HP.

> Enjoy your = idle!!!=20 Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port

> and turn = at=20 least 8000 RPM.

>

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi

> = Ken,

>

>

>=20 Times New Roman

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC

> Engineering's calc shows the same = as the=20 fuel calculator that I

> posted the other day. Four 38 = lb/hr=20 injectors, at 80% duty cycle, .55

> BSFC, should be good = for about=20 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine that

> will be enough = for the=20 current engine, but not by a wide margin. I

> plan to run = this=20 engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be

> amazed = if I can=20 get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for

> these = rpms=20 :-)

>

>

> Times New=20 Roman

>

>

> = ArialFFFF,0000,0000On

>=20 the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it gives=20 a

> HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The = estimate=20 for

> the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% = on=20 this

> spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for = our=20 redrive, and

> prop?

>

>

> = Times New=20 Roman

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers,

>=20 or>

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty

> (hoping Ed out types=20 me)

>

>

> Times New=20 Roman

>

>

> = ArialFFFF,0000,0000

>=20 fontfamily>

>

>

>=20 <

 

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