Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c3) with ESMTP id 817147 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:58:47 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j2NFvx0W017953 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:58:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001201c52fc1$1938e5c0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:58:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C52F97.30227960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C52F97.30227960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, the older 13B NA (post 1986) used 460 cc/min (Peak and Hold - Low = resistance) injectors approx 42 lbs/hr (this is what I fly with). The = first turbo units used 550 cc/min injectors (saturated types - higher = resistance), I have flown with these but found I did not like the idle = as well as the 460 cc/min units so reverted. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Hey=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Mark, is your engine a N/A 13B? Do the 550s equate to a little more = than 50 lbs/hr? That is hugh. Did you find the 42 lb/hr injectors to be = too small? Lastly, can someone tell me the size of the stock Mazda = injectors? Thanks, Jerry=20 On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 09:25 AM, Mark R Steitle wrote: Jerry, I bought a set of eight 42# Ford injectors but in the end, wasn=92t = able to use them and went with the 550=92s.. I gave $320 for the set = and would let them go for my cost. I=92ll split the set if someone else = wants the other four. They have about 5 hours on them. If you=92re = interested contact me off line. =20 =20 Mark S. =20 mark.steitle&Austin.utexas.edu (replace & with @) From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf OfJerry Hey Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:12 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses =20 Ken, after spending the day calculating injector sizes, I ended up = coming to the same conclusion that you did. The Ford 42 lb are perfect = for my application. P.L. recommended 50 lb injectors but for 225 hp they = are too much in my opinion. Unfortunately Ford Racing is out of stock. = Damn. Jerry=20 On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net = wrote:=20 =20 Jerry, the Ford injectors are not directly compatible. Here are the = details: =20 ENGINE SIDE FUEL RAIL SIDE=20 Ford 0.55" 0.55 =20 Mazda 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber ring)=20 0.435=20 Note that the electrical connector is the same (center spline = top/inside and center lower outside). So, the Ford injector will hook = up electrically but the fuel connectors must be different.=20 Ken Powell=20 Bryant, Arkansas=20 501-847-4721=20 =20 =20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 =20 > Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda=20 > injectors as far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a = part=20 > number? BTW sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500 = > rpm and only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net = wrote:=20 >=20 >=20 > But this graph was for a carburated engine so it really=20 > proves nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as rich as we = > want to run - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I know, = if=20 > you run it into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I = > have not seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a = NA=20 > engine and with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If=20 > anyone can educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm = trying=20 > to learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my = P-Port=20 > motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at = 7500=20 > RPM).=20 >=20 > Ken Powell=20 >=20 > Bryant, Arkansas=20 >=20 > 501-847-4721=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------- Original message --------------=20 >=20 >=20 > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);}=20 > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape=20 > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) = }=20 >=20 > Arial0000,0000,8080Rus=20 > ty,=20 >=20 >=20 > Arial0000,0000,8080Are=20 > you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end = by=20 > using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) = indicates=20 > that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm bsfc = will=20 > be up around .60. What does that do to your hp numbers?=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Arial0000,0000,8080=20 > smaller>=20 >=20 >=20 > Arial0000,0000,8080Mar=20 > k=20 > S.=20 >=20 >=20 > Arial0000,0000,8080=20 > smaller>=20 >=20 >=20 ><=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Arial0000,0000,8080=20 > smaller>=20 >=20 >=20 ><=20 >=20 >=20 Times New Roman=20 >=20 >=20 =20 >=20 > From:Rotary motors in=20 > aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=20 > OfRussell Duffy=20 >=20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM=20 >=20 > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 >=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive=20 > losses=20 >=20 >=20 > Times New Roman=20 >=20 >=20 > Times New RomanRC Engineering's calcs show=20 > that you are good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and = > 100% duty cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at 100%=20 > (except maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to = aircraft).=20 > So at 80% duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 = HP.=20 > Enjoy your idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port = > and turn at least 8000 RPM.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi=20 > Ken,=20 >=20 >=20 > Times New Roman=20 >=20 >=20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC=20 > Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator that I=20 > posted the other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty cycle, = .55=20 > BSFC, should be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine = that=20 > will be enough for the current engine, but not by a wide margin. I = > plan to run this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be=20 > amazed if I can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for = > these rpms :-)=20 >=20 >=20 > Times New Roman=20 >=20 >=20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000On=20 > the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it = gives a=20 > HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate for=20 > the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on this=20 > spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for our redrive, and = > prop?=20 >=20 >=20 > Times New Roman=20 >=20 >=20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers,=20 > or>=20 >=20 >=20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty=20 > (hoping Ed out types me)=20 >=20 >=20 > Times New Roman=20 >=20 >=20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000=20 > fontfamily>=20 >=20 >=20 > <=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C52F97.30227960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry, the older 13B NA (post 1986) = used 460=20 cc/min (Peak and Hold - Low resistance) injectors approx 42 = lbs/hr=20 (this is what I fly with).  The first turbo units used 550 cc/min = injectors=20 (saturated types - higher resistance), I have flown with these but found = I did=20 not like the idle as well as the 460 cc/min units so = reverted.
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jerry=20 Hey
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 = 10:45=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel = injector=20 size, and redrive losses

Mark, is your engine a N/A 13B? Do the 550s equate to a = little=20 more than 50 lbs/hr? That is hugh. Did you find the 42 lb/hr injectors = to be=20 too small? Lastly, can someone tell me the size of the stock Mazda = injectors?=20 Thanks, Jerry


On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 09:25 AM, = Mark R=20 Steitle wrote:

Jerry,

= I=20 bought a set of eight 42# Ford injectors but in the end, wasn=92t = able to use=20 them and went with the 550=92s..  I gave $320 for the set and = would let=20 them go for my cost.  I=92ll split the set if someone else = wants the=20 other four.  They have about 5 hours on them.  If you=92re = interested contact me off line. =20

 

= Mark = S. =   

mark.steitle&Austin.utexas.edu=20 (replace &  with=20 = @)

<image.tiff&g= t;


From:Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = OfJerry=20 Hey
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:12 AM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector = size,=20 and redrive=20 losses

 

Ken,=20 after spending the day calculating injector sizes, I ended up coming = to the=20 same conclusion that you did. The Ford 42 lb are perfect for my = application.=20 P.L. recommended 50 lb injectors but for 225 hp they are too much in = my=20 opinion. Unfortunately Ford Racing is out of stock. Damn. Jerry =



On=20 Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote: =

 

Jerry,=20 the Ford injectors are not directly compatible.  Here are the=20 details: =20

            = ENGINE SIDE     FUEL RAIL SIDE =

Ford         =20 = 0.55"           &n= bsp;        =20 0.55      =

Mazda      =20 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber ring) =

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;          =20 0.435

Note that=20 the electrical connector is the same (center spline top/inside and = center=20 lower outside).  So, the Ford injector will hook up = electrically but=20 the fuel connectors must be different. =

Ken Powell =

Bryant,=20 Arkansas

501-847-4721 =

  =

 

--------------=20 Original message -------------- =

 

>=20 Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda =

> = injectors as=20 far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a part=20

> number? = BTW=20 sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500=20

> rpm and = only=20 get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> On = Tuesday,=20 March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote:=20

> =

> =

> But this = graph was for a carburated engine so it really =

> proves=20 nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as rich as we=20

> want = to run=20 - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I know, if=20

> you = run it=20 into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I=20

> have = not=20 seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a NA=20

> = engine and=20 with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If =

> anyone = can=20 educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm trying=20

> to = learn).=20 I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my P-Port=20

> = motor, if=20 this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at 7500=20

> = RPM).

> =

> Ken = Powell

> =

> Bryant,=20 Arkansas

>

> 501-847-4721=20

> =

> =

> =

> =

>=20 -------------- Original message -------------- =

> =

> =

> v\:*=20 {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} =

> w\:*=20 {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape =

>=20 {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } =

> =

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080Rus

> ty,

>

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080Are

> you sure=20 you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end by=20

> = using .55=20 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) indicates=20

> that = .55 is=20 about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm bsfc will=20

> be = up around=20 .60. What does that do to your hp numbers? =

> =

> =

> =

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080

> smaller>

>

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080Mar

> k

> S.

>

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080

> smaller>

>

>

><

>

>

>

>=20 Arial0000,0000,8080

> smaller>

>

>

><

>

>

Times New Roman

>

>

 

>=20

> = From:Rotary=20 motors in

>=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=20

> = OfRussell=20 Duffy

>

> Sent:=20 Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM =

> =

> To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft

>

> Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive =

> losses =

> =

> =

> Times = New=20 Roman

>

>

> Times New=20 RomanRC Engineering's calcs show =

> that you = are=20 good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and =

> 100% = duty=20 cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at 100% =

> (except=20 maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to aircraft).=20

> So = at 80%=20 duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 HP.=20

> = Enjoy your=20 idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port=20

> and = turn at=20 least 8000 RPM.=20

> =

> =

> =

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi

> Ken,

>

>

> Times New=20 Roman

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC

>=20 Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator that I =

> posted = the=20 other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty cycle, .55=20

> = BSFC, should=20 be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine that=20

> will = be=20 enough for the current engine, but not by a wide margin. I=20

> plan = to run=20 this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be =

> amazed = if I=20 can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for=20

> these = rpms=20 :-)

> =

> =

> Times = New=20 Roman

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000On

> the fuel=20 spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it gives a=20

> HP = figure=20 for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate for =

> the = power=20 loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on this =

> = spreadsheet.=20 Anyone know what this amounts to for our redrive, and =

> prop? =

> =

> =

> Times = New=20 Roman

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers, =

> or> =

> =

> =

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty

> (hoping Ed=20 out types me)=20

> =

> =

> Times = New=20 Roman

>

>

>=20 ArialFFFF,0000,0000

>=20 fontfamily>=20

> =

> =

> < =

 

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