Return-Path: Received: from [129.116.87.170] (HELO MAIL01.austin.utexas.edu) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c3) with ESMTP id 817143 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:57:04 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.116.87.170; envelope-from=mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C52FC0.D9FE0C77" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:56:18 -0600 Message-ID: <87DBA06C9A5CB84B80439BA09D86E69EC080D6@MAIL01.austin.utexas.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Thread-Index: AcUvv08NP4HH0t7pQV+LlLFsH8uHxgAAENIQ From: "Mark R Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52FC0.D9FE0C77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,=20 My engine is a 20B REW, with the turbos removed, making it n/a. It came = with 550's in the primaries and secondaries. Based on Ed Anderson's = experiences with poor idle with 550's, I decided to use 42# injectors, = which I did, using a wrapover manifold with the injectors located out on = the "cold side" near the bellmouths. It ran ok, but didn't idle very = good. So, I tried moving the primaries to their original loction in the = side housings. To do this, due to clearance problems, I had to use the = original "side-inlet" 550cc injectors. It idled much better. So, I = replaced the 42# secondaries with the stock 550cc units. I did this to = make tuning easier, and to make both primaries and secondaries match in = case I needed to run in EC-2 emergency mode. Seems to be working ok. = However, I haven't done any full-power tuning yet (waiting for the new = self-configuring chip). =20 =20 Mark S.=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Jerry Hey Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses =20 Mark, is your engine a N/A 13B? Do the 550s equate to a little more than = 50 lbs/hr? That is hugh. Did you find the 42 lb/hr injectors to be too = small? Lastly, can someone tell me the size of the stock Mazda = injectors? Thanks, Jerry=20 =20 On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 09:25 AM, Mark R Steitle wrote:=20 =20 Jerry,=20 =20 I bought a set of eight 42# Ford injectors but in the end, wasn't able = to use them and went with the 550's.. I gave $320 for the set and would = let them go for my cost. I'll split the set if someone else wants the = other four. They have about 5 hours on them. If you're interested = contact me off line. =20 =20 =20 =20 Mark S. =20 =20 mark.steitle&Austin.utexas.edu (replace & with @)=20 =20 =20 =20 From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf OfJerry Hey=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:12 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses=20 =20 =20 =20 Ken, after spending the day calculating injector sizes, I ended up = coming to the same conclusion that you did. The Ford 42 lb are perfect = for my application. P.L. recommended 50 lb injectors but for 225 hp they = are too much in my opinion. Unfortunately Ford Racing is out of stock. = Damn. Jerry=20 =09 =09 =09 On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote:=20 =20 =20 =20 Jerry, the Ford injectors are not directly compatible. Here are the = details: =20 =20 ENGINE SIDE FUEL RAIL SIDE=20 =20 Ford 0.55" 0.55 =20 =20 Mazda 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber ring)=20 =20 0.435=20 =20 Note that the electrical connector is the same (center spline = top/inside and center lower outside). So, the Ford injector will hook = up electrically but the fuel connectors must be different.=20 =20 Ken Powell=20 =20 Bryant, Arkansas=20 =20 501-847-4721=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 =20 =20 =20 > Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda=20 =20 > injectors as far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a part=20 =20 > number? BTW sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500=20 =20 > rpm and only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote: = =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > But this graph was for a carburated engine so it really=20 =20 > proves nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as rich as we=20 =20 > want to run - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I know, if=20 =20 > you run it into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I=20 =20 > have not seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a NA = =20 > engine and with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If=20 =20 > anyone can educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm = trying=20 =20 > to learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my P-Port=20 =20 > motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at = 7500=20 =20 > RPM).=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Ken Powell=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Bryant, Arkansas=20 =20 >=20 =20 > 501-847-4721=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > -------------- Original message --------------=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} = =20 > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape=20 =20 > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Arial0000,0000,8080Rus=20 =20 > ty,=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Arial0000,0000,8080Are=20 =20 > you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end by=20 =20 > using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) indicates=20 =20 > that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm bsfc will=20 =20 > be up around .60. What does that do to your hp numbers?=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Arial0000,0000,8080=20 =20 > smaller>=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Arial0000,0000,8080Mar=20 =20 > k=20 =20 > S.=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Arial0000,0000,8080=20 =20 > smaller>=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 ><=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Arial0000,0000,8080=20 =20 > smaller>=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 ><=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 Times New Roman=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 =20 =20 >=20 =20 > From:Rotary motors in=20 =20 > aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=20 =20 > OfRussell Duffy=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM=20 =20 >=20 =20 > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive=20 =20 > losses=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Times New Roman=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Times New RomanRC Engineering's calcs show=20 =20 > that you are good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and=20 =20 > 100% duty cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at 100%=20 =20 > (except maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to aircraft).=20 =20 > So at 80% duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 HP.=20 =20 > Enjoy your idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port=20 =20 > and turn at least 8000 RPM.=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi=20 =20 > Ken,=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Times New Roman=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC=20 =20 > Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator that I=20 =20 > posted the other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty cycle, .55 = =20 > BSFC, should be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine that = =20 > will be enough for the current engine, but not by a wide margin. I=20 =20 > plan to run this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be=20 =20 > amazed if I can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for=20 =20 > these rpms :-)=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Times New Roman=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000On=20 =20 > the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it gives a = =20 > HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate for=20 =20 > the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on this=20 =20 > spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for our redrive, and=20 =20 > prop?=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Times New Roman=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers,=20 =20 > or>=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty=20 =20 > (hoping Ed out types me)=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > Times New Roman=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > ArialFFFF,0000,0000=20 =20 > fontfamily>=20 =20 >=20 =20 >=20 =20 > <=20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52FC0.D9FE0C77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jerry, =

My engine is a 20B REW, with the = turbos removed, making it n/a.=A0 It came with 550’s in the primaries and secondaries.=A0 Based on Ed Anderson’s experiences with poor idle = with 550’s, I decided to use 42# injectors, which I did, using a wrapover manifold = with the injectors located out on the “cold side” near the = bellmouths.=A0 It ran ok, but didn’t idle very good.=A0 So, I tried moving the = primaries to their original loction in the side housings.=A0 To do this, due to = clearance problems, I had to use the original “side-inlet” 550cc = injectors.=A0 It idled much better.=A0 So, I replaced the 42# secondaries with the = stock 550cc units.=A0 I did this to make tuning easier, and to make both primaries = and secondaries match in case I needed to run in EC-2 emergency mode.=A0 = Seems to be working ok.=A0 However, I haven’t done any full-power tuning yet = (waiting for the new self-configuring chip).=A0

 

Mark S. =

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Hey
Sent: Wednesday, March = 23, 2005 9:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = fuel injector size, and redrive losses

 

Mark, is your engine a N/A 13B? Do the 550s equate to a little = more than 50 lbs/hr? That is hugh. Did you find the 42 lb/hr injectors to be = too small? Lastly, can someone tell me the size of the stock Mazda = injectors? Thanks, Jerry

 

On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 09:25 AM, Mark R Steitle wrote: =

 

Jerry, =

 

I bought a set of eight 42# Ford = injectors but in the end, wasn’t able to use them and went with the 550’s..  I gave $320 for the set and would let them go for my = cost.  I’ll split the set if someone else wants the other four. =  They have about 5 hours on them.  If you’re interested contact me = off line. 

 

  =

 

Mark S.    =

 

mark.steitle&Austin.utexas.edu (replace &  with @)

 

<image.tiff>

 

From:Rotary = motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf OfJerry Hey =

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:12 AM =

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector = size, and redrive losses

 

 

 

Ken, after spending the day calculating injector sizes, I ended = up coming to the same conclusion that you did. The Ford 42 lb are perfect = for my application. P.L. recommended 50 lb injectors but for 225 hp they are = too much in my opinion. Unfortunately Ford Racing is out of stock. Damn. Jerry =



On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net = wrote:

 

 

 

Jerry, the Ford injectors are not directly compatible.  = Here are the details: 

 

           = ; ENGINE SIDE     FUEL RAIL SIDE =

 

Ford          = 0.55"          &nb= sp;          0.55     

 

Mazda       0.65 (with the FAT = Mazda rubber ring)

 

           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           0.435

 

Note that the electrical connector is the same (center spline top/inside and center lower outside).  So, the Ford injector will = hook up electrically but the fuel connectors must be different. =

 

Ken Powell

 

Bryant, Arkansas

 

501-847-4721

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- Original message -------------- =

 

 

 

> Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock = Mazda

 

> injectors as far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you = have a part

 

> number? BTW sorry but there is no way you can run a p port = at 7500

 

> rpm and only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry =

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, = kenpowell@comcast.net wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

> But this graph was for a carburated engine so it really =

 

> proves nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as = rich as we

 

> want to run - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I = know, if

 

> you run it into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT = it!!!). I

 

> have not seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond = 0.6 on a NA

 

> engine and with very little to be gained by going beyond = .55. If

 

> anyone can educate me differently please do so (no kidding, = I'm trying

 

> to learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for = my P-Port

 

> motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 = HP at 7500

 

> RPM).

 

>

 

> Ken Powell

 

>

 

> Bryant, Arkansas =

 

>

 

> 501-847-4721

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> -------------- Original message -------------- =

 

>

 

>

 

> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

 

> w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape =

 

> {behavior:url(#default#VML);} = st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }

 

>

 

> Arial0000,0000,8080Rus

 

> ty,

 

>

 

>

 

> Arial0000,0000,8080Are

 

> you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the = top end by

 

> using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) indicates

 

> that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm = bsfc will

 

> be up around .60. What does that do to your hp numbers? =

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Arial0000,0000,8080

 

> smaller>

 

>

 

>

 

> Arial0000,0000,8080Mar

 

> k

 

> S.

 

>

 

>

 

> Arial0000,0000,8080

 

> smaller>

 

>

 

>

 

><

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Arial0000,0000,8080

 

> smaller>

 

>

 

>

 

><

 

>

 

>

 

Times New Roman

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

> From:Rotary motors in

 

> aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf =

 

> OfRussell Duffy

 

>

 

> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM =

 

>

 

> To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

 

>

 

> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive =

 

> losses

 

>

 

>

 

> Times New Roman

 

>

 

>

 

> Times New RomanRC Engineering's calcs show =

 

> that you are good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 = BSFC, and

 

> 100% duty cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at = 100%

 

> (except maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to aircraft).

 

> So at 80% duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for = 242 HP.

 

> Enjoy your idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you = P-Port

 

> and turn at least 8000 RPM.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi

 

> Ken,

 

>

 

>

 

> Times New Roman

 

>

 

>

 

> ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC

 

> Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator = that I

 

> posted the other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty = cycle, .55

 

> BSFC, should be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I = imagine that

 

> will be enough for the current engine, but not by a wide = margin. I

 

> plan to run this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though = I'll be

 

> amazed if I can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' = P-Port for

 

> these rpms :-)

 

>

 

>

 

> Times New Roman

 

>

 

>

 

> ArialFFFF,0000,0000On

 

> the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, = it gives a

 

> HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate = for

 

> the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on = this

 

> spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for our = redrive, and

 

> prop?

 

>

 

>

 

> Times New Roman

 

>

 

>

 

> ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers,

 

> or>

 

>

 

>

 

> ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty

 

> (hoping Ed out types me)

 

>

 

>

 

> Times New Roman

 

>

 

>

 

> ArialFFFF,0000,0000

 

> fontfamily>

 

>

 

>

 

> <

 

 

 

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