Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.169.52] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c2) with ESMTP id 756843 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:21:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.169.52; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:21:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.174.6.200 by BAY3-DAV22.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:20:12 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.174.6.200] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor Lock Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:20:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C519F5.D6FACDD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:20:11 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Feb 2005 03:21:01.0520 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDAAE500:01C51A1F] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C519F5.D6FACDD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor LockI agree, it's a tough call on the Facet = pump with the sump tank. But then if you eliminated the sump = tank....... : )=20 Your Andair valve is a good (but pricey) solution. And I see the fuel = transfer requirement as no more onerous than the requirement to switch = tanks. This is a cherries & nectarines issue. Both taste great. I'll have to think about that "auto leveling" a bit but at first blush, = I'm not sure it would work in all situations. Have you tried it? Tracy Thanks for the info, Tracy. My only concern is this....if the Facet = pump was not involved, might it be better to have it back in the system = so that if I have a future problem, I could turn the Facet pump on to = pressurize the sump tank with fresh fuel? Ed seems to be comfortable = with this, and has had to use it. Of course, on the other hand, if the Facet even partially = contributed to the vapor lock issue, I don't want it in my system. I = need to talk to Herb Sanders one more time, as he was concerned that = because the Facet will not allow back flow, it might be a major = contributor to the vapor lock issue. I'm feeling like my system is = fairly simple as it now stands. Gravity feed, only the two required EFI = pumps, a vented sump tank, and a simple Andair fuel selector valve. I = do not need to transfer fuel from one tank to another, or anything like = that. I can also select "both" on the fuel selector, and balance fuel = consumption automatically, or just switch to left or right tank if = needed. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:12 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor Lock Paul, one last thought on the vapor lock thing. Very glad you have = found that it was the problem. There is nothing worse than not knowing. = It is quite possible that changing EITHER of the two variables = (in-line Facet or vent on the header/sump tank) will make the system = work. Just because you remove one and it works does not mean you have = found the root cause. Earlier I used the "strikes" analogy, and we = don't know how many of these it takes to make an "out". From your background I'm sure you know that it is frequently a = combination of things that can cause a failure. Removing one of them = may 'fix' the problem now but add in other variables like fuel vapor = pressure, altitude, etc, and the problem could come back. The goal is = to make the system as tolerant of all factors as possible. Happily, = this frequently means making it simple too! One other thought on simplicity. I have never landed without power = (in my rotary powered plane) but I have come close several times in the = early days. The only thing that prevented it was having a fairly simple = system and knowing it very well. This helped diagnose the problem and = fix or compensate for it before running out of altitude and ideas. Tracy -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005 >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C519F5.D6FACDD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor Lock
I agree, it's a tough call on the Facet pump with the sump = tank.  But=20 then if you eliminated the sump tank.......  : ) 
 Your Andair valve is a good (but pricey) solution.  =  And I=20 see the fuel transfer requirement as no more onerous than the = requirement=20 to switch tanks.  This is a cherries & nectarines issue.  = Both=20 taste great.
 
I'll have to think about that "auto leveling" a bit but at first = blush, I'm=20 not sure it would work in all situations.  Have you tried it?
 
Tracy
Thanks for the info, Tracy.  My only = concern is=20 this....if the Facet pump was not involved, might it be better to have = it=20 back in the system so that if I have a future problem, I = could turn=20 the Facet pump on to pressurize the sump tank with fresh fuel?  = Ed seems=20 to be comfortable with this, and has had to use it.
       Of course, on = the other=20 hand, if the Facet even partially contributed to  the vapor = lock=20 issue, I don't want it in my system.  I need to talk to Herb = Sanders one=20 more time, as he was concerned that because the Facet will not allow = back=20 flow, it might be a major contributor to the vapor lock issue. I'm = feeling=20 like my system is fairly simple as it now stands. Gravity feed, only = the two=20 required EFI pumps, a vented sump tank, and a simple Andair fuel = selector=20 valve.  I do not need to transfer fuel from one=20 tank to another, or anything like that. I can also select "both" on = the fuel=20 selector, and balance fuel consumption automatically, or just switch = to left=20 or right tank if needed. Paul Conner
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, = 2005 1:12=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Vapor=20 Lock

Paul, one last thought on the vapor lock thing.  Very = glad=20 you have found that it was the problem.  There is nothing worse = than=20 not knowing. 
 
It is quite possible that changing EITHER of the two variables = (in-line=20 Facet or vent on the header/sump tank) will make the system = work.  Just=20 because you remove one and it works does not mean you have = found=20 the root cause.  Earlier I used the "strikes" analogy, and we = don't=20 know how many of these it takes to make an "out".
 
  From your background I'm sure you know that it is = frequently a=20 combination of things that can cause a failure.  Removing one = of them=20 may 'fix' the problem now but add in other variables like fuel vapor = pressure, altitude, etc, and the problem could come=20 back.  The goal is to make the system as tolerant of = all=20 factors as possible.  Happily, this frequently means making it = simple=20 too!
 
One other thought on simplicity.  I have never landed = without=20 power (in my rotary powered plane) but I have come close several = times in=20 the early days.  The only thing that prevented it was having a = fairly=20 simple system and knowing it very well.  This helped diagnose = the=20 problem and fix or compensate for it before running out of altitude = and=20 ideas.
 
Tracy

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