Return-Path: Received: from email2k3.itlnet.net ([64.19.112.12] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c2) with ESMTP id 752229 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:19:13 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.19.112.12; envelope-from=jwvoto@itlnet.net Received: from rav.itlnet.net (unverified [192.168.10.149]) by itlnet.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 6.1.17) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:18:39 -0600 Received: from JWVOTO (unverified [64.19.115.229]) by itlnet.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 6.1.17) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:18:38 -0600 Message-ID: <015301c517b3$a3125680$e5731340@JWVOTO> From: "Wendell Voto" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [c-a] Why are aircraft engines so high priced??????? Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:20:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0149_01C51781.2E87D100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0149_01C51781.2E87D100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amen Wendell Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: [c-a] Why are aircraft engines so high = priced??????? I'll give it a shot :o)) ------ Forwarded Message From: Scott Derrick Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:14:27 -0700 Cc: canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [c-a] Why are aircraft engines so high priced??????? See embedded comments ... Will, No I can't point to a database of accident reports or something = similar.=20 I'm speaking from what I've heard and seen. Strictly a personal = opinion. Sometimes we have to actually look for stuff that might be less = obvious :o) I think the most damning evidence concerning automotive conversions = is=20 the deafening silence of reports of success. =20 This would seem to imply your deafness to a LOT of documentation - = very little of which is allowed to get past the censorship and appear on = the c-a list. I'm speaking of long=20 hours. Who has gone 2000 hours on a conversion? If my information is correct, about a thousand crop dusters flying = behind big block Fords for years and years. They take a lickin' and = just keep tickin'. But we're talking homebuilts aren't we. Who has gone 2000 hours with = a Lyc? What kind of hours? Am I correct that you're implying trouble = free hours? I've never met anyone who owns a Lycusaurus or Continental = who ever got to TBO without some serious failure(s) or very expensive = preventive maintenance. I don't know of a single example. But I'm sure = there must be one. I believe Ken Miller (sorry for taking your name in = vain, Ken :o) is one of the more enthusiastic Lycoming fans around. Did = he just do a top overhaul on his engine? How many hours did he have on = his EZ? What other not-minor-maintenance has he done on that engine? = Typically, there are jugs failing, certainly a lot of mags, fuel system = problems, etc. Of course it would be nice to see more than one success = story. I'm sure there are some - they just haven't come to my = attention. I know of a guy with 1500 trouble free hours in a rotary, = and another working on 1000. =20 At this stage of the game, I'm not sure that anyone in the homebuilt = community has 2000 hours of any kind of operation with an automotive = engine in a homebuilt. Truth be told, I only know of a handful of = people with 2000 hours in ANY homebuilt, with WHATEVER kind of engine. = I would hazard a guess that in a couple of years, I will be able to = produce one hell of a lot more people with 1000 or 1500 or 2000 trouble = free hours in auto conversions (based on portion of the homebuilt = population) than you will ever be able to produce with trouble free time = in certified engines. And it would be nice to=20 see more than one.... :-) The longest I know of is Tracey Cook on a = Mazda conversion, 600 hours??? maybe more. How about a list of 10 = or=20 more conversions that have gone 500 hours? Can't find it... NOW we're getting somewhere! Actually, it's more like 1600 - pretty = much totally trouble free IIRC. Your information is dated by several = years, and in the auto conversion terms, sort of like computers, that's = currently several generations. I was on the conversion bandwagon for quite some time. The lack of=20 success stories have dampened my enthusiasm. Perhaps you could tell us a few success stories around Lycoming = powered homebuilts who logged a lot of time without serious failures. = If you are even a little bit interested in putting your money where your = mouth is, how about producing some documented (like with engine logs) = cases of Lycoming powered homebuilts with over 1000 trouble free hours. = Then, try for 1500. Then try to find someone who got good service all = the way to TBO. That is, after all, what you're asking of the = conversion community. Fair is fair (at least so I was brought up to = believe :o) I doubt you'll find many who have made it to 1000 hrs at all, much = less trouble free. But try to find A guy who has 1000 trouble free Lyc = hours in a homebuilt. Document the money they've spent so far on = maintenance. The Lyc/Cont population outnumbers the auto conversion = population maybe 800:1 to 1000:1. But if you sampled the entire = certified population, there's no way in the world you are going to find = 800 to 1000 times more people who have gotten extended service with no = serious failures than I will be able to produce in the auto conversion = world. Not mentioned (but I will bring it up all the same) is the cost of = ownership. A tricked out auto engine with a good PSRU will cost maybe = $10k firewall forward. Sort of like a Lyc. You can rebuild a rotary = for under $700. That wouldn't buy the freaking VALVES for a Lyc. A = Subaru overhauls for maybe $600 - $800, a V6 or V8 $1000 tops. But you = may never have to overhaul your auto conversion. So far, there is no = reason to believe that a rotary engine won't go 3000 or 4000 hours = before it needs that $700 overhaul. V6s are holding together pretty = well too. Which of us will live long enough to accumulate that kind of = flight time? So basically, we have to agree how we're going to define reliability = and how we're going to score the results of the two camps. We need one = set of rules for everyone. So far, most of the Lyc fans can be relied = upon to: =20 A) Get really shrill whenever an auto conversion has a failure of any = kind (usually involving bolt-on accessories, rarely the engine itself) = and condemn the whole movement seven ways from Sunday as a deadly lost = cause B) Ignore equivalent Lyc failures because "... everyone knows that = item is going to fail a lot ..." and the poor slob whose engine failed = is berated for not babying his engine enough or inspecting it enough or = not replacing the ??? in anticipation of the failure. Has all the = intellectual allure of blaming the rape victim for causing her own = misfortune by wearing a tight skirt. Can you spell D -O-U-B-L-E S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D ?? It's nice to see this issue discussed at all, even if it gets a little = incoherent and hysterical at times. A couple of years ago I was 86'ed = off the c-a list for heresy. I had the temerity to suggest that some = people were not being quite fair in their condemnation of auto engines, = because condemnation was the only context allowed to be expressed = concerning conversions. I'm much happier where I am ... here with the open minds ... Jim S. Scott >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0149_01C51781.2E87D100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Amen
 
Wendell
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: = [c-a] Why=20 are aircraft engines so high priced???????

 
I'll=20 give it a shot :o))

------ Forwarded Message
From: Scott = Derrick "><sderrick@starband.net><= BR>Date:=20 Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:14:27 -0700
Cc: canard-aviators@yahoogrou= ps.com
Subject:=20 Re: [c-a] Why are aircraft engines so high=20 priced???????
See = embedded comments=20 ...
Will,

No I can't point to a database of = accident=20 reports or something similar.
I'm speaking from what I've heard = and=20 seen.  Strictly a personal = opinion.
Sometimes we have to actually look for stuff = that might=20 be less obvious :o)

I think the most damning evidence concerning = automotive=20 conversions is
the deafening silence of reports of = success. =20
This would seem = to imply your=20 deafness to a LOT of documentation - very little of which is = allowed to=20 get past the censorship and appear on the c-a list.
I'm speaking of long
hours.  Who has gone = 2000=20 hours on a conversion?
If my=20 information is correct, about a thousand crop dusters flying behind = big block=20 Fords for years and years.  They take a lickin' and just keep=20 tickin'.

But we're talking = homebuilts aren't=20 we.  Who has gone 2000 hours with a Lyc?  What kind of = hours? =20 Am I correct that you're implying trouble free hours?  I've never = met=20 anyone who owns a Lycusaurus or Continental who ever got to TBO = without some=20 serious failure(s) or very expensive preventive = maintenance.  I don't know of a single example.  But I'm = sure=20 there must be one.  I believe Ken = Miller=20 (sorry for taking your name in vain, Ken :o) is one of the more = enthusiastic=20 Lycoming fans around.  Did he just do a top overhaul on his = engine? =20 How many hours did he have on his EZ?  What other = not-minor-maintenance=20 has he done on that engine?  Typically, there are jugs failing, = certainly=20 a lot of mags, fuel system problems, etc.  Of course it would be = nice to=20 see more than one success story.  I'm sure there are some - they = just=20 haven't come to my attention.  I know of a guy with 1500 = trouble free=20 hours in a rotary, and another working on 1000. 

At = this=20 stage of the game, I'm not sure that anyone in the homebuilt community = has=20 2000 hours of any kind of operation with an automotive engine = in a=20 homebuilt.  Truth be told, I only know of a handful of people = with 2000=20 hours in ANY homebuilt, with WHATEVER kind of engine.  I would = hazard a=20 guess that in a couple of years, I will be able to produce one hell of = a lot=20 more people with 1000 or 1500 or 2000 trouble free hours in auto = conversions=20 (based on portion of the homebuilt population) than you will ever be = able to=20 produce with trouble free time in certified engines.
And it would be nice to
see more than one.... = :-)=20  The longest I know of is Tracey Cook on a
Mazda = conversion, 600=20 hours??? maybe more.  How about a list of 10 or
more = conversions=20 that have gone 500 hours? Can't find = it...
NOW we're getting somewhere!  Actually, it's more = like 1600=20 - pretty much totally trouble free IIRC.  Your information is = dated by=20 several years, and in the auto conversion terms, sort of like = computers, =20 that's currently several generations.

I was on the conversion bandwagon for quite = some time.=20  The lack of
success stories have dampened my=20 enthusiasm.
Perhaps you could=20 tell us a few success stories around Lycoming powered homebuilts who = logged a=20 lot of time without serious failures.  If you are even a little = bit=20 interested in putting your money where your mouth is, how about = producing some=20 documented (like with engine logs) cases of Lycoming powered = homebuilts with=20 over 1000 trouble free hours.  Then, try for 1500.  Then try = to find=20 someone who got good service all the way to TBO.  That is, after = all,=20 what you're asking of the conversion community.  Fair is fair (at = least=20 so I was brought up to believe :o)

I doubt you'll find many who = have=20 made it to 1000 hrs at all, much less trouble free.  But try to = find A=20 guy who has 1000 trouble free Lyc hours in a homebuilt.  = Document the=20 money they've spent so far on maintenance.  The Lyc/Cont = population=20 outnumbers the auto conversion population maybe 800:1 to 1000:1.  = But if=20 you sampled the entire certified population, there's no way in the = world you=20 are going to find 800 to 1000 times more people who have gotten=20 extended service with no serious failures than I will be = able to=20 produce in the auto conversion world.

Not mentioned (but I will = bring=20 it up all the same) is the cost of ownership.  A tricked out auto = engine=20 with a good PSRU will cost maybe $10k firewall forward.  Sort of = like a=20 Lyc.  You can rebuild a rotary for under $700.  That = wouldn't buy=20 the freaking VALVES for a Lyc.  A Subaru overhauls for maybe $600 = - $800,=20 a V6 or V8 $1000 tops.  But you may never have to overhaul your = auto=20 conversion.  So far, there is no reason to believe that a rotary = engine=20 won't go 3000 or 4000 hours before it needs that $700 overhaul.  = V6s are=20 holding together pretty well too.  Which of us will live long = enough to=20 accumulate that kind of flight time?

So basically, we have to = agree how=20 we're going to define reliability and how we're going to score the = results of=20 the two camps.  We need one set of rules for everyone.  So = far, most=20 of the Lyc fans can be relied upon to: 
A)  Get really = shrill=20 whenever an auto conversion has a failure of any kind (usually = involving=20 bolt-on accessories, rarely the engine itself) and condemn the whole = movement=20 seven ways from Sunday as a deadly lost cause

B)  Ignore=20 equivalent Lyc failures because "... everyone knows that item is going = to fail=20 a lot ..." and the poor slob whose engine failed is berated for not = babying=20 his engine enough or inspecting it enough or not replacing the ??? in=20 anticipation of the failure.  Has all the intellectual allure of = blaming=20 the rape victim for causing her own misfortune by wearing a tight=20 skirt.

Can you spell D -O-U-B-L-E    S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D=20 ??

It's nice to see this issue discussed at all, even if it = gets a=20 little incoherent and hysterical at times.  A couple of years ago = I was=20 86'ed off the c-a list for heresy.  I had the temerity to = suggest=20 that some people were not being quite fair in their condemnation of = auto=20 engines, because condemnation was the only context allowed to be = expressed=20 concerning conversions.

I'm much happier where I am ... here = with the=20 open minds ... Jim S.

Scott

>>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

>>  Archive:   =
http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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