I will add a little  fodder to this fire also !! See bottom post !!

 

Kelly Troyer

 

------ Forwarded Message
From: Scott Derrick <sderrick@starband.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:14:27 -0700
Cc: canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [c-a] Why are aircraft engines so high priced???????

See embedded comments ...

Will,

No I can't point to a database of accident reports or something similar.
I'm speaking from what I've heard and seen.  Strictly a personal opinion.

Sometimes we have to actually look for stuff that might be less obvious :o)

I think the most damning evidence concerning automotive conversions is
the deafening silence of reports of success. 

This would seem to imply your deafness to a LOT of documentation - very little of which is allowed to get past the censorship and appear on the c-a list.

I'm speaking of long
hours.  Who has gone 2000 hours on a conversion?

If my information is correct, about a thousand crop dusters flying behind big block Fords for years and years.  They take a lickin' and just keep tickin'.

But we're talking homebuilts aren't we.  Who has gone 2000 hours with a Lyc?  What kind of hours?  Am I correct that you're implying trouble free hours?  I've never met anyone who owns a Lycusaurus or Continental who ever got to TBO without some serious failure(s) or very expensive preventive maintenance.  I don't know of a single example.  But I'm sure there must be one.  I believe Ken Miller (sorry for taking your name in vain, Ken :o) is one of the more enthusiastic Lycoming fans around.  Did he just do a top overhaul on his engine?  How many hours did he have on his EZ?  What other not-minor-maintenance has he done on that engine?  Typically, there are jugs failing, certainly a lot of mags, fuel system problems, etc.  Of course it would be nice to see more than one success story.  I'm sure there are some - they just haven't come to my attention.  I know of a guy with 1500 trouble free hours in a rotary, and another working on 1000. 

At this stage of the game, I'm not sure that anyone in the homebuilt community has 2000 hours of any kind of operation with an automotive engine in a homebuilt.  Truth be told, I only know of a handful of people with 2000 hours in ANY homebuilt, with WHATEVER kind of engine.  I would hazard a guess that in a couple of years, I will be able to produce one hell of a lot more people with 1000 or 1500 or 2000 trouble free hours in auto conversions (based on portion of the homebuilt population) than you will ever be able to produce with trouble free time in certified engines.

And it would be nice to
see more than one.... :-)  The longest I know of is Tracey Cook on a
Mazda conversion, 600 hours??? maybe more.  How about a list of 10 or
more conversions that have gone 500 hours? Can't find it...

NOW we're getting somewhere!  Actually, it's more like 1600 - pretty much totally trouble free IIRC.  Your information is dated by several years, and in the auto conversion terms, sort of like computers,  that's currently several generations.

I was on the conversion bandwagon for quite some time.  The lack of
success stories have dampened my enthusiasm.

Perhaps you could tell us a few success stories around Lycoming powered homebuilts who logged a lot of time without serious failures.  If you are even a little bit interested in putting your money where your mouth is, how about producing some documented (like with engine logs) cases of Lycoming powered homebuilts with over 1000 trouble free hours.  Then, try for 1500.  Then try to find someone who got good service all the way to TBO.  That is, after all, what you're asking of the conversion community.  Fair is fair (at least so I was brought up to believe :o)

I doubt you'll find many who have made it to 1000 hrs at all, much less trouble free.  But try to find A guy who has 1000 trouble free Lyc hours in a homebuilt.  Document the money they've spent so far on maintenance.  The Lyc/Cont population outnumbers the auto conversion population maybe 800:1 to 1000:1.  But if you sampled the entire certified population, there's no way in the world you are going to find 800 to 1000 times more people who have gotten extended service with no serious failures than I will be able to produce in the auto conversion world.

Not mentioned (but I will bring it up all the same) is the cost of ownership.  A tricked out auto engine with a good PSRU will cost maybe $10k firewall forward.  Sort of like a Lyc.  You can rebuild a rotary for under $700.  That wouldn't buy the freaking VALVES for a Lyc.  A Subaru overhauls for maybe $600 - $800, a V6 or V8 $1000 tops.  But you may never have to overhaul your auto conversion.  So far, there is no reason to believe that a rotary engine won't go 3000 or 4000 hours before it needs that $700 overhaul.  V6s are holding together pretty well too.  Which of us will live long enough to accumulate that kind of flight time?

So basically, we have to agree how we're going to define reliability and how we're going to score the results of the two camps.  We need one set of rules for everyone.  So far, most of the Lyc fans can be relied upon to: 
A)  Get really shrill whenever an auto conversion has a failure of any kind (usually involving bolt-on accessories, rarely the engine itself) and condemn the whole movement seven ways from Sunday as a deadly lost cause

B)  Ignore equivalent Lyc failures because "... everyone knows that item is going to fail a lot ..." and the poor slob whose engine failed is berated for not babying his engine enough or inspecting it enough or not replacing the ??? in anticipation of the failure.  Has all the intellectual allure of blaming the rape victim for causing her own misfortune by wearing a tight skirt.

Can you spell D -O-U-B-L-E    S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D ??

It's nice to see this issue discussed at all, even if it gets a little incoherent and hysterical at times.  A couple of years ago I was 86'ed off the c-a list for heresy.  I had the temerity to suggest that some people were not being quite fair in their condemnation of auto engines, because condemnation was the only context allowed to be expressed concerning conversions.

I'm much happier where I am ... here with the open minds ... Jim S.

Scott

Textron Lycoming To Appeal Texas Verdict
Company Will Fight $96 Million Verdict Related To Crankshaft 
Failures 

Textron Lycoming has 
announced that the company will appeal the recent verdict in a Texas court 
which orders the 
company to pay $9.7 million in actual damages and $86.3 million in 
punitive damages to Interstate Southwest Ltd. of Navasota 
(TX). 

Lycoming had originally sued Interstate Southwest over the issue 
of failed crankshafts, claiming that the latter had overheated 
forgings that were used to produce the crankshafts, resulting in 
weakening that led to the failures. However, Interstate countered 
that Lycoming's design for the crankshafts was flawed, and their 
decision to add Vanadium to make the metal used for the forgings 
stronger exacerbated the problem. 

"At this point, 
Lycoming just recently received the verdict and we're studying it 
very carefully," said Karen Gordon, Textron spokeswoman, to the 
Wichita Business Journal. "We strongly disagree with the outcome of 
this case and we're going to very aggressively pursue post trial 
motions and the appellate process, if necessary, and firmly believe 
we're going to prevail." 

The issue stems from the failures of crankshafts in engines 
installed in Cessna, Piper and other aircraft. From 2000 to 2002, 
24 crankshafts failed, resulting in 12 fatalities. 
FMI: www.lycoming.textron.com 

  So much for certified aircraft engines !!

 Kelly Troyer