Return-Path: Received: from relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.167] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 744804 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:56:03 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.133.182.167; envelope-from=canarder@frontiernet.net Received: from filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.68]) by relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFEF3584BA for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:55:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (67-137-75-55.dsl2.cok.tn.frontiernet.net [67.137.75.55]) by relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B31B3584E5 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:55:15 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <42165629.10907@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:55:05 -0600 From: Jim Sower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040514 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor Lock References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010407020500040007000007" X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0507-4, 02/18/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20040701 (2.0) at filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010407020500040007000007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tanks are composite/sandwich structure that water does not condense in the tanks That's bullshit. Perhaps it doesn't condense as MUCH as a wet tin wing (Cessnas have thick rubber fuel cells and generate LOTS of water). Where are you getting fuel? Probably a better question is "where am I keeping it?" In a wing tank with a cap that's open to all of the climatic conditions. Fuel caps are probably the major factor - how sure can you be that your caps are TOTALLY water tight? Every test for air tight that I conduct (troubleshooting transfer anomalies) my tanks fail. It costs nothing to check. It can cost A LOT to not check ... Jim; S. Wendell Voto wrote: > I find it interesting that you get water in the sump on a Velocity. A > previous owner of one told me that since the tanks are > composite/sandwich structure that water does not condense in the tanks > and never got any moisture in the fuel. Where are you getting fuel? > Could it have water in it? (they put water in everything now days to > "enhance it" or make you pay $4 a pound for it). > Wendell > > > Fine, but what kind of filters are you using and where are they in > the system? Gascolator is NOT a suitable substitute for a filter. > I have a "flat bottomed" sump on my Velocity, and water DOES > accumulate in it. My fuel line to the pumps is cheated up off the > bottom of the tank half an inch and there's a test drain in the > bottom of the sump to check for water. One of these days I'm > going to make a little "blister" in the bottom of the sump where > water will accumulate so I can get it ALL out without removing the > sump and shaking it for twenty minutes. > It all counts, and some of it counts /against /us ... Jim S. > > Paul wrote: > >> Hi, Wendell....I use the gascolator for a couple of reasons. I >> cannot check my aluminum sump tank. It is sealed. Since the EFI >> pumps are located lower than the sump tank, it would be more >> logical to check for water at the lowest point in the fuel >> system. The fuel goes from the sump tank to the gascolator, >> which is the lowest point in the fuel system. I like the >> gascolator because it has a screen to catch debris that might >> have found it's way to the EFI pumps, and the gascolator has a >> fuel drain on the bottom of it so that I can check for water at >> the lowest point in the system. I don't think the sump would >> catch the water, as the outlet from the sump is on the bottom of >> the sump, and water should go right on through the sump tank to >> the gascolator and EFI pumps, which are the lowest point in the >> fuel system. I thought this was the best way to design a gravity >> fed fuel system....everything downhill and a fuel drain at the >> lowest point. Please correct me if I am in error. Paul looking >> for a Cessna Conner >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Wendell Voto >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:59 AM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor Lock >> >> Paul, >> Why use a gasolator if you have a sump tank with the outlet a >> couple inches off the bottom of the sump? Won't the sump tank >> catch the water and a strainer stop the big stuff. The sump >> is checked before each flight and a gasolator isn't. Go >> straight to the FP then thru a fuel filter and then the fuel >> rail. Eliminates the restriction, weight and connections to >> leak. I am beginning to lean towards in-tank pumps with built >> in strainer since all this has come to light. >> Wendell >> >> Hi, Kelly....the efi pumps are the last item before the >> fuel rail and fuel pressure regulator. Here is the basic >> system... The fuel in the main tanks goes downhill to >> the fuel selector. Fuel then goes downhill again through >> the Facet pump into the top of the sump tank. Fuel then >> comes out of the bottom of the sump tank through the >> gascolator into the EFI pump(s), then to the fuel rail >> with fuel pressure regulator attached, then that returned >> fuel goes back into the top of the sump tank. That is >> the complete system. Take care. Paul Conner >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: >> 2/14/2005 >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> --------------010407020500040007000007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tanks are composite/sandwich structure that water does not condense in the tanks
That's bullshit.  Perhaps it doesn't condense as MUCH as a wet tin wing (Cessnas have thick rubber fuel cells and generate LOTS of water). 
Where are you getting fuel?
Probably a better question is "where am I keeping it?"  In a wing tank with a cap that's open to all of the climatic conditions.  Fuel caps are probably the major factor - how sure can you be that your caps are TOTALLY water tight?  Every test for air tight that I conduct (troubleshooting transfer anomalies) my tanks fail.
It costs nothing to check.  It can cost A LOT to not check ... Jim; S.

Wendell Voto wrote:
I find it interesting that you get water in the sump on a Velocity. A previous owner of one told me that since the tanks are composite/sandwich structure that water does not condense in the tanks and never got any moisture in the fuel.  Where are you getting fuel? Could it have water in it? (they put water in everything now days to "enhance it" or make you pay $4 a pound for it).
Wendell

Fine, but what kind of filters are you using and where are they in the system?  Gascolator is NOT a suitable substitute for a filter.
I have a "flat bottomed" sump on my Velocity, and water DOES accumulate in it.  My fuel line to the pumps is cheated up off the bottom of the tank half an inch and there's a test drain in the bottom of the sump to check for water.  One of these days I'm going to make a little "blister" in the bottom of the sump where water will accumulate so I can get it ALL out without removing the sump and shaking it for twenty minutes.
It all counts, and some of it counts against us ... Jim S.

Paul wrote:
Hi, Wendell....I use the gascolator for a couple of reasons. I cannot check my aluminum sump tank.  It is sealed. Since the EFI pumps are located lower than the sump tank, it would be more logical to check for water at the lowest point in the fuel system.  The fuel goes from the sump tank to the gascolator, which is the lowest point in the fuel system. I like the gascolator because it has a screen to catch debris that might have found it's way to the EFI pumps, and the gascolator has a fuel drain on the bottom of it so that I can check for water at the lowest point in the system.  I don't think the sump would catch the water, as the outlet from the sump is on the bottom of the sump, and water should go right on through the sump tank to the gascolator and EFI pumps, which are the lowest point in the fuel system. I thought this was the best way to design a gravity fed fuel system....everything downhill and a fuel drain at the lowest point.  Please correct me if I am in error.  Paul looking for a Cessna Conner 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Vapor Lock

Paul,
Why use a gasolator if you have a sump tank with the outlet a couple inches off the bottom of the sump? Won't the sump tank catch the water and a strainer stop the big stuff. The sump is checked before each flight and a gasolator isn't. Go straight to the FP then thru a fuel filter and then the fuel rail. Eliminates the restriction, weight and connections to leak. I am beginning to lean towards in-tank pumps with built in strainer since all this has come to light.
Wendell
Hi, Kelly....the efi pumps are the last item before the fuel rail and fuel pressure regulator. Here is the basic system...  The fuel in the main tanks goes downhill to the fuel selector. Fuel then goes downhill again through the Facet pump into the top of the sump tank. Fuel then comes out of the bottom of the sump tank through the gascolator into the EFI pump(s), then to the fuel rail with fuel pressure regulator attached, then that returned fuel goes back into the top of the sump tank.  That is the complete system. Take care. Paul Conner
 
 
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