Return-Path: Received: from mail2.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.206] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 742245 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:53:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.93.66.206; envelope-from=dsbarno@vbe.com Received: from u036fr3za011 (d34.as0.wtma.wi.core.com [64.77.136.162]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.13.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id j1H1r0ZT098380 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:53:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <014b01c51494$1b08bd00$3c40fea9@u036fr3za011> From: "Barnhart" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] deep cycle batteries Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:57:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0147_01C51461.CFA4E280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0147_01C51461.CFA4E280 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0148_01C51461.CFAE0A40" ------=_NextPart_001_0148_01C51461.CFAE0A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, Plan on using 2 delco voyager M24mf for a battery. We abuse these alot = and they always work. One alternator, one buss, two master = switches/batteries.=20 Barny MGDQ 20bt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alex Madsen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:01 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery voltage (was: Racetech RV6A Forced = Landing) It seems to me people should be using deep cycle marine batteries for = there aircraft. A deep cycle marine battery will give much better and = longer performance with a dead alternator.=20 =20 "Starting, Marine, and Deep-Cycle Batteries Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) = batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters = need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting = batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. = The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a = very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep = cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of = the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep = cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in = normal starting use (2-5% discharge). =20 =20 Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much = as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major = difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the = plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often = impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount = stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular = golf cart battery is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any = starting battery, better than most marine, but not as good as a true = deep cycle solid Lead plate, such the L-16 or industrial type. However, = because the golf cart (T-105, US-2200, GC-4 etc) batteries are so = common, they are usually quite economical for small to medium systems. =20 Many (most?) Marine batteries are usually actually a "hybrid", = and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, while a few = (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the = hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and = heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell = what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. = "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting = batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", = Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity = shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes = hard to tell, as the terms marine and deep cycle are sometimes overused. = CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. = Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to = buy one and cut it open - not much of an option." =20 =20 Using a deep cycle battery as a starting battery There is generally no problem with this, providing that allowance is = made for the lower cranking amps compared to a similar size starting = battery. As a general rule, if you are going to use a true deep cycle = battery (such as the Concorde) also as a starting battery, it should be = oversized about 20% compared to the existing or recommended starting = battery group size to get the same cranking amps. That is about the same = as replacing a group 24 with a group 31. With modern engines with fuel = injection and electronic ignition, it generally takes much less battery = power to crank and start them, so raw cranking amps is less important = than it used to be. On the other hand, many cars, boats, and RV's are = more heavily loaded with power sucking "appliances", such as megawatt = stereo systems etc. that are more suited for deep cycle batteries. We = have been using the Concorde SunExtender AGM batteries in most of our = vehicles for some time now with no problems." http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm Alex Madsen =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of WRJJRS@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:54 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery voltage (was: Racetech RV6A Forced = Landing) =20 George, Most of the motorcycles will still show at least 11 volts while = cranking and those are small batteries. They will jump back up to at = least 12.5 after cranking. I agree that 9.5 volts is almost totally dead = for practical purposes. Most battery based systems will have trouble at = around 10 volts. Use a backup battery and a changeover system with any = electrically based system. The EXP Buss (I think) is sold by the = anywhere map people. Makes it very easy to set up a battery backup = system and still charge both. I think Eggenfellner also sells them. Good = looking product, a good friend has one.=20 For battery info go to the Yuasa web site. In the technical section = they have a excellent do's and don'ts of battery operation. There is = also a good description of the different battery types and their = discharge rates. Good info to know about this VITAL system part! Bill Jepson=20 =20 In a message dated 2/15/2005 11:34:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, = lendich@optusnet.com.au writes: Bill, What would you expect the battery to show under starting load. George ( down under) > > > I suspected a charging system failure immediately and checked = the > >battery voltage in the SDS monitor. This read 9.5 volts so I knew = then that > >we had a charging system failure. At the time, I was not worried = about > >making it to an airport, assuming that the alternator had failed = just in the > >last few minutes and believing that I had 20-25 minutes of = battery power > >remaining. In fact, it is likely that the alternator failed soon = after > >takeoff from Springbank but I did not notice signs of the failure = until the > >battery was well over half dead. =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ------=_NextPart_001_0148_01C51461.CFAE0A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alex,
 
Plan on using 2 delco voyager M24mf for = a battery.=20 We abuse these alot and they always work. One alternator, one buss, two = master=20 switches/batteries.
 
Barny
MGDQ 20bt
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alex=20 Madsen
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, = 2005 4:01=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Battery voltage=20 (was: Racetech RV6A Forced Landing)

It seems to = me people=20 should be using deep cycle marine batteries for there aircraft. A deep = cycle=20 marine battery will give much better and longer performance with a = dead=20 alternator.

 

=93Starting,=20 Marine, and Deep-Cycle=20 Batteries

Starting (sometimes = called SLI,=20 for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to = start=20 and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting = current for=20 a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of = thin plates=20 for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead = "sponge",=20 similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a = very=20 large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly = be=20 consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive=20 batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep = cycled,=20 while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting = use (2-5%=20 discharge).

<= !--mstheme-->

 

3Dbullet=20

Deep=20 cycle=20 batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time = after=20 time, and have much thicker plates. The major = difference=20 between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates = are=20 SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often = impossible to=20 tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores = or places=20 that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular golf cart = battery=20 is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any starting = battery,=20 better than most marine, but not as good as a true deep cycle = solid Lead=20 plate, such the L-16 or industrial type. However, because the = golf cart=20 (T-105, US-2200, GC-4 etc) batteries are so common, they are = usually=20 quite economical for small to medium systems.

3Dbullet=20

Many (most?)=20 Marine=20 batteries are usually actually a = "hybrid",=20 and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, while a = few=20 (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. = In the=20 hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is = coarser and=20 heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard = to tell=20 what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a = hybrid.=20 "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting=20 batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or = "MCA",=20 Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the = capacity=20 shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is = sometimes=20 hard to tell, as the terms marine and deep cycle=20 are sometimes overused. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 = degrees F,=20 while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive = way to=20 tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not = much of an=20 = option.=94

 

Using a deep=20 cycle battery as a starting=20 battery

There is generally no = problem=20 with this, providing that allowance is made for the lower = cranking=20 amps compared to a similar size starting = battery.=20 As a general rule, if you are going to use a true deep cycle battery = (such as=20 the Concorde) also as a starting battery, it should be = oversized = about 20%=20 compared to the existing or recommended starting battery group size to = get the=20 same cranking amps. That is about the same as replacing a group 24 = with a=20 group 31. With modern engines with fuel injection and electronic = ignition, it=20 generally takes much less battery power to crank and start them, so = raw=20 cranking amps is less important than it used to be. On the other hand, = many=20 cars, boats, and RV's are more heavily loaded with power sucking = "appliances",=20 such as megawatt stereo systems etc. that are more suited for deep = cycle=20 batteries. We have been using the Concorde SunExtender AGM batteries = in most=20 of our vehicles for some time now with no=20 problems.=94

http://www.wind= sun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

Alex=20 Madsen

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of WRJJRS@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, = 2005 2:54=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Battery voltage (was: Racetech RV6A Forced=20 Landing)

 

George,

 Most = of the=20 motorcycles will still show at least 11 volts while cranking and those = are=20 small batteries. They will jump back up to at least 12.5 after = cranking. I=20 agree that 9.5 volts is almost totally dead for practical purposes. = Most=20 battery based systems will have trouble at around 10 volts. Use a = backup=20 battery and a changeover system with any electrically based system. = The EXP=20 Buss (I think) is sold by the anywhere map people. Makes it very easy = to set=20 up a battery backup system and still charge both. I think Eggenfellner = also=20 sells them. Good looking product, a good friend has one.=20

 For = battery=20 info go to the Yuasa web site. In the technical section they have = a=20 excellent do's and don'ts of battery operation. There is also a good=20 description of the different battery types and their discharge=20 rates. Good info to know about this VITAL system=20 part!

Bill=20 Jepson 

 

In a = message dated=20 2/15/2005 11:34:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, lendich@optusnet.com.au=20 writes:

Bill,
What=20 would you expect the battery to show under starting load.
George = ( down=20 under)

>
> >  I suspected a charging system = failure=20 immediately and checked the
> >battery voltage in the SDS = monitor.=20 This read 9.5 volts so I knew then
that
> >we had a = charging=20 system failure. At the time, I was not worried about
> = >making it=20 to an airport, assuming that the alternator had failed just=20 in
the
> >last few minutes and believing that I had = 20-25=20 minutes of battery power
> >remaining. In fact, it is = likely that=20 the alternator failed soon after
> >takeoff from Springbank = but I=20 did not notice signs of the failure until
the
> >battery = was=20 well over half dead.

 

 
This message scanned = for viruses by=20 CoreComm=20
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