Return-Path: Received: from web41525.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.94.132] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with SMTP id 740074 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:54:56 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.218.94.132; envelope-from=tomtugan@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 6000 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Feb 2005 16:54:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cZ+5SJXAZKbRJSa1G6zFrMu/FueNkhnaZKBpwddKvBX3lUInPiK6/4NDPHW1prJMx9Rrf2nopdAYynTGSqV6Vh/6S212JZPcR9Gstbqgbca+7oSN3QpoaEBjfCPeolHmbQHHfgHXm8j6YvYzE494b2L0pnYUDkHEMQin7hRdvUM= ; Message-ID: <20050215165412.5998.qmail@web41525.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.224.93.112] by web41525.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:54:12 PST Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:54:12 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Big Butterflies, was: Bruce Turrentine Intake To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1807677142-1108486452=:5083" --0-1807677142-1108486452=:5083 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob White said: "I took the measurement to be the ID = 2 9/16 X 25/4 = 65.0875 mm. ---- Thanks Bob, Is that for a Renesis? According to info I encountered this morning (from a vw dunebuggy site), your butterfly would support airflow needed for approximately 402HP. The problem is that as you advance your throttle beyond the motors ability to create HP, you get nothing additional. This sounds like something I've heard John Slade and Paul say "I pushed the throttle further forward and there was nothing else". At this website they said.... "If the air valve is too big, you don't control the air flow. For example, a smaller displacement engine will only flow X amount of air. If the engine is flowing all the air it can by the time the throttle is 1/2 open, then as you increase the throttle, there is no air flow change into the engine. The electronics needs to have a linear air flow to do the calculations correctly. Again, bigger is not always better. For turbo applications, don't go much bigger than the size of the turbo output." They also go on to give a calculation of max butterfly size, based on some rules of thumb... First, they say "a basic is to make 100 horsepower, you need 140 CFM of air." (Remember Eds calculations showing the 13b consumes about 280CFM at 6000shaft-rpm, or about 2758 prop rpm using a 2.175 reduction unit. So approx, roughly, 200hp at 2758rpm? Looking like it's all in the ballpark except maybe ability of a 13b to actually do this.) " The rule of thumb for naturally aspirated fuel injection, at a standard 1.5 inches of water column, is that for every square inch of butterfly, you will flow 140 CFM. To calculate the air flow for a 2" butterfly, you need to calculate the area first. Area = pi X radius squared. So, 1/2 of 2" is 1 inch, squared is still 1, times pi (3.14) = 3.14 square inches of butterfly area. This means that it will flow enough air for approximately 440 CFM, or 314 horsepower. Now remember this is approximate, and there are losses, but this is where you have to be real and ask yourself just how much horsepower is (the motor) really going to make?" So lets take your butterfly size of 2 9/16 inches. Bobs butterfly area = (2 9/16 / 2) x 3.14 = 4.02 square inches Max supported airflow based on their rule-of-thumb = 4.02 x 140CFM = 562CFM Max HP based on these (100HP per each 140CFM) = 402HP The difference between the actual HP your motor will make and 402HP is throttle-movement that would do nothing for you. Here's the website: http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/intake.htm Still learning stuff, Tom Bob White wrote: I took the measurement to be the ID = 2 9/16 X 25/4 = 65.0875 mm. Bob White On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:17:03 -0800 "Jack Ford" wrote: > 2.75"x25.4 mm =70 mm. (Or thereabouts). > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob White" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:17 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bruce Turrentine Intake > > > > > > Thanks Tom, > > > > I have a Bruce Turrentine 13B with 9.7:1 compression rotors. I believe > it's got the turbo end housings and the NA rotor housings. There are some > photos at: > > http://www.rotarywiki.org/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Engine and if you go to > Bruce's web site, There are photos of the engine being built up: > > http://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index > > > > Mine is the "Hulk" (for some reason). > > > > The TB is 65 mm if I did the math right. > > > > Bob White > > > > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:10:37 -0800 (PST) > > Tom wrote: > > > > > Looks nice Bob. What motor are you hanging this on and.... what's the > bore diameter of that throttle body, if you don't mind? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > Bob White wrote: > > > > > > Many months of waiting has finally paid off. I received my Turrentine > > > Intake manifold this evening. > > > > > > I'm going to need to do a little work to it. The throttle body is a > > > Nissan and it looks like some extra stuff was removed. That's OK, but > > > the return spring is still on it and it closes the throttle, so that > > > will have to be rearranged. > > > > > > There is a small port on the side that is about 1/2 closed off when the > > > throttle plate is closed. As soon as the plate opens a little, the port > > > is behind the plate. This doesn't seem to me to be a good location for > > > either the EC2 sensor, or a reference for the fuel regulator. Shouldn't > > > both of those be completely behind the throttle plate at all times? I'm > > > thinking that I should drill a couple of ports right behind the throttle > > > body. One for the EC2 and one for the fuel regulator. > > > > > > Any comments or opinions would be appreciated. > > > > > > One note: Bruce has told me that he isn't going to make any more like > > > this. He is going to replace the aluminum plenum with a laid up plenum. > > > The runners and flange will remain aluminum. This is to reduce the time > > > required to build it. > > > > > > Bob White > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.bob-white.com > > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (soon) > > > > > > > > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=TurrentienIntakea.jpg > > > > > > > > > > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg name=ThrottleBodya.jpg > > > > > > > > > > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg name=Flangea.jpg > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > > > > -- > > http://www.bob-white.com > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (soon) > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- http://www.bob-white.com N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (soon) >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1807677142-1108486452=:5083 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Bob White said:
"I took the measurement to be the ID = 2 9/16 X 25/4 = 65.0875 mm.

----
 
Thanks Bob,
 
Is that for a Renesis?
 
According to info I encountered this morning (from a vw dunebuggy site), your butterfly would support airflow needed for approximately 402HP.    The problem is that as you advance your throttle beyond the motors ability to create HP, you get nothing additional.   This sounds like something I've heard John Slade and Paul say "I pushed the throttle further forward and there was nothing else".
 
At this website they said....
"If the air valve is too big, you don't control the air flow. For example, a smaller displacement engine will only flow X amount of air. If the engine is flowing all the air it can by the time the throttle is 1/2 open, then as you increase the throttle, there is no air flow change into the engine. The electronics needs to have a linear air flow to do the calculations correctly. Again, bigger is not always better. For turbo applications, don't go much bigger than the size of the turbo output."
 
They also go on to give a calculation of max butterfly size, based on some rules of thumb...
 
First, they say "a basic is to make 100 horsepower, you need 140 CFM of air."
(Remember Eds calculations showing the 13b consumes about 280CFM at 6000shaft-rpm,  or about 2758 prop rpm using a 2.175 reduction unit.     So approx, roughly, 200hp at 2758rpm?   Looking like it's all in the ballpark except maybe ability of a 13b to actually do this.)
 
"     The rule of thumb for naturally aspirated fuel injection, at a standard 1.5 inches of water column, is that for every square inch of butterfly, you will flow 140 CFM.
      To calculate the air flow for a 2" butterfly, you need to calculate the area first. Area = pi X radius squared. So, 1/2 of 2" is 1 inch, squared is still 1, times pi (3.14) = 3.14 square inches of butterfly area. This means that it will flow enough air for approximately 440 CFM, or 314 horsepower. Now remember this is approximate, and there are losses, but this is where you have to be real and ask yourself just how much horsepower is (the motor) really going to make?"
 
So lets take your butterfly size of  2 9/16 inches.
Bobs butterfly area = (2 9/16  / 2) x 3.14 =  4.02 square inches
Max supported airflow based on their rule-of-thumb = 4.02 x 140CFM = 562CFM
Max HP based on these (100HP per each 140CFM) = 402HP
The difference between the actual HP your motor will make and 402HP is throttle-movement that would do nothing for you.
 
Here's the website:
 
Still learning stuff,
Tom

 
   
 
 
 
 

Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:

I took the measurement to be the ID = 2 9/16 X 25/4 = 65.0875 mm.

Bob White

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:17:03 -0800
"Jack Ford" wrote:

> 2.75"x25.4 mm =70 mm. (Or thereabouts).
>
> Jack
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob White"
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:17 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bruce Turrentine Intake
>
>
> >
> > Thanks Tom,
> >
> > I have a Bruce Turrentine 13B with 9.7:1 compression rotors. I believe
> it's got the turbo end housings and the NA rotor housings. There are some
> photos at:
> > http://www.rotarywiki.org/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Engine and if you go to
> Bruce's web site, There are photos of the engine being built up:
> > http://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index
> >
> > Mine is the "Hulk" (for some reason).
> >
> > The TB is 65 mm if I did the math right.
> >
> > Bob White
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:10:37 -0800 (PST)
> > Tom wrote:
> >
> > > Looks nice Bob. What motor are you hanging this on and.... what's the
> bore diameter of that throttle body, if you don't mind?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob White wrote:
> > >
> > > Many months of waiting has finally paid off. I received my Turrentine
> > > Intake manifold this evening.
> > >
> > > I'm going to need to do a little work to it. The throttle body is a
> > > Nissan and it looks like some extra stuff was removed. That's OK, but
> > > the return spring is still on it and it closes the throttle, so that
> > > will have to be rearranged.
> > >
> > > There is a small port on the side that is about 1/2 closed off when the
> > > throttle plate is closed. As soon as the plate opens a little, the port
> > > is behind the plate. This doesn't seem to me to be a good location for
> > > either the EC2 sensor, or a reference for the fuel regulator. Shouldn't
> > > both of those be completely behind the throttle plate at all times? I'm
> > > thinking that I should drill a couple of ports right behind the throttle
> > > body. One for the EC2 and one for the fuel regulator.
> > >
> > > Any comments or opinions would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > One note: Bruce has told me that he isn't going to make any more like
> > > this. He is going to replace the aluminum plenum with a laid up plenum.
> > > The runners and flange will remain aluminum. This is to reduce the time
> > > required to build it.
> > >
> > > Bob White
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.bob-white.com
> > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (soon)
> > >
> > >
> > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=TurrentienIntakea.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg name=ThrottleBodya.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg name=Flangea.jpg
> > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.bob-white.com
> > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (soon)
> >
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
> > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
>
>
> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>


--
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