Return-Path: Received: from mail19.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.200] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP-TLS id 728850 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:12:11 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.200; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-56-83.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.56.83]) by mail19.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j1EMBKWh027586 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:11:21 +1100 Message-ID: <007301c512e2$6df30880$5338ecdc@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: More on Header Tanks, Venting & Pressure Reg Position Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:13:35 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C51336.3F329B10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C51336.3F329B10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed , My system says it needs a pass-word to read. George ( down under) A typo in my original message .....apparently just set the pressure high - like 65psi and use an = intake regulator to keep it at that pressure. ...... The sentence should read .... like 65 psi and use an in-tank regulator = to keep it at that pressure........ Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More on Header Tanks, Venting & Pressure Reg = Position > Ernest, >=20 > Looks like a well thought out design. I believe the secret is = keeping all > fuel lines likely to accumulate any significant amount of heat from = the > engine/exhaust/etc highly pressurized. That is the way the recent > "returnless" automobile EFIs are keeping vapor lock from happening. = Some > have a ECM function which rapidly changes the fuel pressure to = compensate > for certain variables they do not even require a pressure regulator, = Others > apparently just set the pressure high - like 65psi and use an intake > regulator to keep it at that pressure. >=20 > Ford converted the 4 cylinder trucks to a returnless fuel system in = 1998. > This system uses a single high-pressure pump in the tank, and an = in-tank > pressure relief valve that opens once fuel line pressure reaches 65 = psi > controls fuel pressure. Excess fuel is released out of the relief = valve and > back into the tank. Fuel moves from the pump through a single = plastic line > to a filter mounted on the driver's side frame rail, then up to the = fuel > rail on the intake manifold. Lines in these systems use all = spring-style > connectors. This system will not allow fuel rail pressure to exceed = 65 psi > because of the pressure relief valve, so if your planned boost = levels are > going to put your needs above this level, you'll need to convert to = a return > style fuel system. >=20 > Page 2 of this pdf has a diagram of the Toyota returnless system as = well as > a description. >=20 > http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h42.pdf >=20 > A description of the Neon returnless system >=20 > Here's the basics. >=20 > a.. How the System is designed to work: > a.. The Neon uses a returnless fuel system, fuel is pumped up = from the > tank to the injectors without using a return line. This means that = all the > fun stuff like pressure control is handled under the middle of the = car at > the fuel tank. > b.. The fuel pump is mounted in the tank and pushes fuel up out = of the > tank at a full 130psi. There is only one pump unlike a lot of EFI = systems > which use a "lift" pump to get fuel out of the tank and then another = to > boost the pressure up to spec. > c.. In all 1st generation Neons and in the PL2000 until the 2001 = model > year the pressure at the fuel rail is regulated at 49psi. The = regulator is > always fitted in or on the tank at the pumps outlet. > d.. For the 2001 models (and across the whole Chrysler range) = the fuel > pressure was bumped up to 58psi. Apparently there were no other = changes > made so it is possible to swap regulators. > e.. All the fuel systems have a in-tank filter mounted to the = end of the > pump. This is known either as an inlet strainer or as a fuel = filter. It > can be changed - but you will need to drop the tank to change it. = Here's a > pic taken by Emilio and posted to the Neons.org boards. The part = number for > this filter (well for a 1999 DOHC but they all interchange in = PLASTIC TANKED > cars) is "04897416". >=20 > You'r moving along rapidly >=20 >=20 > Ed A >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Ding! Ding! > > Class is now in session. I have my pen and paper in hand, ready = to take > > notes. > > >=20 >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > ---- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > ---- >=20 >=20 > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C51336.3F329B10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed ,
My system says it needs a pass-word to=20 read.
George ( down under)
A typo in my original = message
 

.....apparently just set the = pressure high -=20 like 65psi and use an=20 intake
regulator to keep it at that pressure.  = ......
 
The sentence should read .... like 65 = psi and use=20 an in-tank regulator to = keep it at=20 that pressure........
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:45=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More on = Header Tanks,=20 Venting & Pressure Reg Position

> Ernest,
>
> Looks like a well thought out=20 design.  I believe the secret is keeping all
> fuel lines = likely to=20 accumulate any significant amount of heat from the
> = engine/exhaust/etc=20 highly pressurized.  That is the way the recent
> = "returnless"=20 automobile EFIs are keeping vapor lock from happening.  = Some
> have=20 a ECM  function which rapidly changes the fuel pressure to=20 compensate
> for certain variables they do not even require a = pressure=20 regulator, Others
> apparently just set the pressure high - like = 65psi=20 and use an intake
> regulator to keep it at that = pressure.
>=20
> Ford converted the 4 cylinder trucks to a returnless fuel = system in=20 1998.
> This system uses a single high-pressure pump in the = tank, and an=20 in-tank
> pressure relief valve that opens once fuel line = pressure=20 reaches 65 psi
> controls fuel pressure. Excess fuel is released = out of=20 the relief valve and
> back into the tank. Fuel moves from the = pump=20 through a single plastic line
> to a filter mounted on the = driver's side=20 frame rail, then up to the fuel
> rail on the intake manifold. = Lines in=20 these systems use all spring-style
> connectors. This system = will not=20 allow fuel rail pressure to exceed 65 psi
> because of the = pressure=20 relief valve, so if your planned boost levels are
> going to put = your=20 needs above this level, you'll need to convert to a return
> = style fuel=20 system.
>
> Page 2 of this  pdf has a diagram of the = Toyota=20 returnless system as well as
> a description.
>
> = http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h42.pdf
>
> A description of the Neon returnless = system
>=20
> Here's the basics.
>
>   a.. How the System = is=20 designed to work:
>     a.. The Neon uses a = returnless=20 fuel system, fuel is pumped up from the
> tank to the injectors = without=20 using a return line.  This means that all the
> fun stuff = like=20 pressure control is handled under the middle of the car at
> the = fuel=20 tank.
>     b.. The fuel pump is mounted in the = tank and=20 pushes fuel up out of the
> tank at a full 130psi.  There = is only=20 one pump unlike a lot of EFI systems
> which use a "lift" pump = to get=20 fuel out of the tank and then another to
> boost the pressure up = to=20 spec.
>     c.. In all 1st generation Neons and = in the=20 PL2000 until the 2001 model
> year the pressure at the fuel rail = is=20 regulated at 49psi.  The regulator is
> always fitted in or = on the=20 tank at the pumps outlet.
>     d.. For the 2001 = models=20 (and across the whole Chrysler range) the fuel
> pressure was = bumped up=20 to 58psi.  Apparently there were no other changes
> made so = it is=20 possible to swap regulators.
>     e.. All the = fuel=20 systems have a in-tank filter mounted to the end of the
> = pump. =20 This is known either as an inlet strainer or as a fuel filter. =20 It
> can be changed - but you will need to drop the tank to = change=20 it.  Here's a
> pic taken by Emilio and posted to the = Neons.org=20 boards.  The part number for
> this filter (well for a 1999 = DOHC=20 but they all interchange in PLASTIC TANKED
> cars) is=20 "04897416".
>
> You'r moving along rapidly
> =
>=20
> Ed  A
>
>
>
> > Ding!=20 Ding!
> > Class is now in session.  I have my pen and = paper in=20 hand, ready to take
> > notes.
> >
>
> =
>=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>=20 ----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>=20 ----
>
>
> > >>  Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 > >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html> >
>
>
>
> = >> =20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html = ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C51336.3F329B10--