Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 728769 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:55:05 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j1EKsGee016955 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:54:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004601c512d7$5ffd94d0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: More on Header Tanks, Venting & Pressure Reg Position Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:54:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C512AD.76F58050" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C512AD.76F58050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A typo in my original message =20 .....apparently just set the pressure high - like 65psi and use an = intake regulator to keep it at that pressure. ...... The sentence should read .... like 65 psi and use an in-tank regulator = to keep it at that pressure........ Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More on Header Tanks, Venting & Pressure Reg = Position > Ernest, >=20 > Looks like a well thought out design. I believe the secret is keeping = all > fuel lines likely to accumulate any significant amount of heat from = the > engine/exhaust/etc highly pressurized. That is the way the recent > "returnless" automobile EFIs are keeping vapor lock from happening. = Some > have a ECM function which rapidly changes the fuel pressure to = compensate > for certain variables they do not even require a pressure regulator, = Others > apparently just set the pressure high - like 65psi and use an intake > regulator to keep it at that pressure. >=20 > Ford converted the 4 cylinder trucks to a returnless fuel system in = 1998. > This system uses a single high-pressure pump in the tank, and an = in-tank > pressure relief valve that opens once fuel line pressure reaches 65 = psi > controls fuel pressure. Excess fuel is released out of the relief = valve and > back into the tank. Fuel moves from the pump through a single plastic = line > to a filter mounted on the driver's side frame rail, then up to the = fuel > rail on the intake manifold. Lines in these systems use all = spring-style > connectors. This system will not allow fuel rail pressure to exceed 65 = psi > because of the pressure relief valve, so if your planned boost levels = are > going to put your needs above this level, you'll need to convert to a = return > style fuel system. >=20 > Page 2 of this pdf has a diagram of the Toyota returnless system as = well as > a description. >=20 > http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h42.pdf >=20 > A description of the Neon returnless system >=20 > Here's the basics. >=20 > a.. How the System is designed to work: > a.. The Neon uses a returnless fuel system, fuel is pumped up from = the > tank to the injectors without using a return line. This means that = all the > fun stuff like pressure control is handled under the middle of the car = at > the fuel tank. > b.. The fuel pump is mounted in the tank and pushes fuel up out of = the > tank at a full 130psi. There is only one pump unlike a lot of EFI = systems > which use a "lift" pump to get fuel out of the tank and then another = to > boost the pressure up to spec. > c.. In all 1st generation Neons and in the PL2000 until the 2001 = model > year the pressure at the fuel rail is regulated at 49psi. The = regulator is > always fitted in or on the tank at the pumps outlet. > d.. For the 2001 models (and across the whole Chrysler range) the = fuel > pressure was bumped up to 58psi. Apparently there were no other = changes > made so it is possible to swap regulators. > e.. All the fuel systems have a in-tank filter mounted to the end = of the > pump. This is known either as an inlet strainer or as a fuel filter. = It > can be changed - but you will need to drop the tank to change it. = Here's a > pic taken by Emilio and posted to the Neons.org boards. The part = number for > this filter (well for a 1999 DOHC but they all interchange in PLASTIC = TANKED > cars) is "04897416". >=20 > You'r moving along rapidly >=20 >=20 > Ed A >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Ding! Ding! > > Class is now in session. I have my pen and paper in hand, ready to = take > > notes. > > >=20 >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > ---- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > ---- >=20 >=20 > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C512AD.76F58050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A typo in my original = message
 
 
.....apparently just set the = pressure=20 high - like 65psi and use an=20 intake
regulator to keep it at that pressure. =20 ......
 
The sentence should read .... like 65 = psi and use=20 an in-tank regulator to = keep it at=20 that pressure........
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:45=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More on Header = Tanks,=20 Venting & Pressure Reg Position

> Ernest,
>
> Looks like a well thought out = design. =20 I believe the secret is keeping all
> fuel lines likely to = accumulate any=20 significant amount of heat from the
> engine/exhaust/etc highly=20 pressurized.  That is the way the recent
> "returnless" = automobile=20 EFIs are keeping vapor lock from happening.  Some
> have a = ECM =20 function which rapidly changes the fuel pressure to compensate
> = for=20 certain variables they do not even require a pressure regulator, = Others
>=20 apparently just set the pressure high - like 65psi and use an = intake
>=20 regulator to keep it at that pressure.
>
> Ford converted = the 4=20 cylinder trucks to a returnless fuel system in 1998.
> This system = uses a=20 single high-pressure pump in the tank, and an in-tank
> pressure = relief=20 valve that opens once fuel line pressure reaches 65 psi
> controls = fuel=20 pressure. Excess fuel is released out of the relief valve and
> = back into=20 the tank. Fuel moves from the pump through a single plastic line
> = to a=20 filter mounted on the driver's side frame rail, then up to the = fuel
> rail=20 on the intake manifold. Lines in these systems use all = spring-style
>=20 connectors. This system will not allow fuel rail pressure to exceed 65=20 psi
> because of the pressure relief valve, so if your planned = boost=20 levels are
> going to put your needs above this level, you'll need = to=20 convert to a return
> style fuel system.
>
> Page 2 = of=20 this  pdf has a diagram of the Toyota returnless system as well = as
>=20 a description.
>
> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h42.pdf
>
> A description of the Neon returnless = system
>=20
> Here's the basics.
>
>   a.. How the System = is=20 designed to work:
>     a.. The Neon uses a = returnless fuel=20 system, fuel is pumped up from the
> tank to the injectors without = using a=20 return line.  This means that all the
> fun stuff like = pressure=20 control is handled under the middle of the car at
> the fuel = tank.
>=20     b.. The fuel pump is mounted in the tank and pushes = fuel up=20 out of the
> tank at a full 130psi.  There is only one pump = unlike a=20 lot of EFI systems
> which use a "lift" pump to get fuel out of = the tank=20 and then another to
> boost the pressure up to spec.
>=20     c.. In all 1st generation Neons and in the PL2000 = until the=20 2001 model
> year the pressure at the fuel rail is regulated at=20 49psi.  The regulator is
> always fitted in or on the tank at = the=20 pumps outlet.
>     d.. For the 2001 models (and = across the=20 whole Chrysler range) the fuel
> pressure was bumped up to = 58psi. =20 Apparently there were no other changes
> made so it is possible to = swap=20 regulators.
>     e.. All the fuel systems have a = in-tank=20 filter mounted to the end of the
> pump.  This is known = either as an=20 inlet strainer or as a fuel filter.  It
> can be changed - = but you=20 will need to drop the tank to change it.  Here's a
> pic = taken by=20 Emilio and posted to the Neons.org boards.  The part number = for
>=20 this filter (well for a 1999 DOHC but they all interchange in PLASTIC=20 TANKED
> cars) is "04897416".
>
> You'r moving along=20 rapidly
>
>
> Ed  A
>
>
> =
>=20 > Ding! Ding!
> > Class is now in session.  I have my = pen and=20 paper in hand, ready to take
> > notes.
> >
> =
>=20
>=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>=20 ----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>=20 ----
>
>
> > >>  Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >=20 >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html> >
>
>
>
> = >> =20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C512AD.76F58050--