Return-Path: Received: from imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.9) with ESMTP id 712006 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:34:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.69; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from [209.214.44.13] by imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with ESMTP id <20050208033226.GBCS2069.imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.net@[209.214.44.13]> for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:32:26 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.5]); Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:32:22 -0600 Message-ID: <011601c50d8e$cc00f8a0$0d2cd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:32:20 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-420832C621AF=======" --=======AVGMAIL-420832C621AF======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0113_01C50D5C.814C49E0" ------=_NextPart_000_0113_01C50D5C.814C49E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Paul, as they say - a good landing is if you wall away from it - an = excellent landing is when the aircraft will fly again without repair and = an Outstanding landing is all of the above but, you don't leave skid = marks on the taxiway. Certainly glad everything ended as well as it did = - good thinking and decision making under a bundle of stress - I know, = I have left skid marks for 300ft after aborting a take off, ended up 12 = ft off in the grass. Here is a wild guess at what could have caused your problem. I would = wager that you did not reprogram the map after putting on the smaller = dia prop. My aborted take off occurred because I had been tuning the = ECU (not Tracy's EC2 - an aftermarket auto unit) with a Laptop - but, of = course I could not tune the map for those rpms above static until I got = airborne. So on the ground, I extrapolated for the higher rpms = figuring to refine them in the air. As soon as I lifted off and had = gained approx 20-30 ft of altitude, the engine revved into the part of = the rpm range that I had extrapolated the Map settings. The engine = immediately dropped from 5000+ rpm to around 3500 rpm, recovered and = surged back to 5000 then died back down to 3500. Despite being airport = and 80MPH I elected to abort on this 2200 ft runway. Touched down = firmly 300ft from the end (measure the tire tracks) got on the binders = very hard (you know what I mean - glad I had the nose wheel) and left = rubber (actually no skids - no flat spots of tires) just rubber digging = into the tarmac from point of touch down to rolling off the grass. I = remember dodging between two end of runway light markers so I wouldn't = ding my flaps. Funny what you think of at times like that..Now, in my = case if I had just had the time to reach over an play with the mixture = control I might have found that full rich would have enabled flight - or = if I had taken one more fraction of a second in making a decision I = truly could have been in bottom of a ravine at the end of the runway. But, the point of my tale is I suspect that one possible cause might = be your engine getting into a higher rpm region of your fuel map which = you perhaps couldn't get to with the larger prop. If so? (and a big IF = I admit), then if it were too lean the engine would lose power. In any = case, a hearty pat on the back for handling a very challenging situation = with cool aplomb (well, hell nobody was with you to say otherwise {:>) Best Regards Ed Hi, Ed... I considered that as a possibility...no, more like a = probablility....but I was thinking that when I reduced the throttle the = engine rpm's would have gotten back into the area where it was = programmed correctly (or at least closer to correct). I throttled all = the way back to 1/4 throttle, and then back to 1/2 throttle, and no = improvement. It was difficult to reduce the throttle on an already "not = climbing" aircraft, but at that point, I was willing to try anything. = Could not get it to go above 2000 rpm's, and it was running VERY rough. = Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Bad day at the airport On Sunday I decided to do a little "tweaking" on the ECU fuel = mixtures on my 13b powered SQ2000. I had the larger 3 bladed = Performance prop on, and just wasn't getting the rpm's I wanted, so I = put the smaller dia/less pitch prop on and took it to the end of the = runway and once I was lined up on the runway, advanced the throttle to = wide open. RPM's were only around 5100, but I have flown it that way = before, so I decided to go ahead and try to work with the mixture = programming at 5000 feet. Acceleration was normal, liftoff in less than = 2000 feet, and started my climb. At approximately 250 feet, the engine = started failing rapidly. I tried various throttle positions, with no = improvement. Unable to maintain altitude. I immediately started a left = turn, hoping maybe the engine would recover enough to just get me to 500 = feet downwind so I would have a chance of making the runway. No such = luck. I was now heading back toward the center of the airport at = approximately 100 feet and descending. I wanted to land on the center = turn-off section in the middle of the airport, but that would have me = landing straight towards several parked aircraft and the main hangar. = Not the best option. There is a newly paved area slightly to my left, = where aircraft may be tied down in the future, but it was empty for now. = I was out of options and altitude. I crossed the runway at less than 50 = feet. I didn't want to land going across the runway, because the grass = and mud I would encounter after rolling across the runway would probably = flip the aircraft over. I headed for the new aircraft tie-down area, and = attacked it at a 45 degree angle to get as much "runway" as possible. I = held it off until I was over the parallel taxiway, and landed on the = parallel taxiway (the short way, of course) and with heavy braking, = began skidding across the aircraft tie-down area. (See attached photos). = I knew I couldn't stop in that short a distance, but hopefully when I = went off the other end of the pavement, I would not be going as fast. = The nose was dipped down at an angle from all the heavy braking, so I = had a nice view of what was coming. Grass, mud and a ditch. The = aircraft kept slowing down, and as I ran out of pavement, I wasn't going = all that fast. I probably only went 10 feet past the end of the paved = area into the grass and came to a stop. Missed the ditch by almost 5 = feet !!! No problem...that was fun !!! Just don't care to do it again. = I restarted the engine and taxiied back to the hangar, pretending = nothing had happened. I don't know what to do at this point. I don't = care to have this much fun again anytime soon. I'm torn between a = carburetor and a Cessna. Paul Conner -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. 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----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 = 8:47=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad = day at the=20 airport

Paul, as they say  - a good = landing is if=20 you wall away from it - an excellent landing is when the aircraft will = fly=20 again without repair and an Outstanding landing is all of the above = but, you=20 don't leave skid marks on the taxiway.  Certainly glad everything = ended=20 as well as it did - good thinking and decision making under a bundle = of stress=20 - I know,  I have left skid marks for 300ft after aborting a take = off,=20 ended up 12 ft off in the grass.
 
Here is a wild guess at = what could have=20 caused your problem.  I would wager that you did not reprogram = the map=20 after putting on the smaller dia prop.  My aborted take off = occurred=20 because I had been tuning the ECU (not Tracy's EC2 - an aftermarket = auto unit)=20 with a Laptop - but, of course I could not tune the map for those rpms = above=20 static until I got airborne.  So on the ground,  I = extrapolated for=20 the higher rpms figuring to refine them in the air.  As soon as I = lifted=20 off and had gained approx 20-30 ft of altitude, the engine revved into = the=20 part of the rpm range that I had extrapolated the Map settings.  = The=20 engine immediately dropped from 5000+ rpm to around 3500 rpm, = recovered and=20 surged back to 5000 then died back down to 3500.  Despite being = airport=20 and 80MPH I elected to abort on this 2200 ft runway.  Touched = down firmly=20 300ft from the end (measure the tire tracks) got on the binders very = hard (you=20 know what I mean - glad I had the nose wheel) and left rubber = (actually no=20 skids - no flat spots of tires) just rubber digging into the tarmac = from point=20 of touch down to rolling off the grass.  I remember dodging = between two=20 end of runway light markers so I wouldn't ding my flaps.  Funny = what you=20 think of at times like that..Now, in my case if I had just had the = time to=20 reach over an play with the mixture control I might have found that = full rich=20 would have enabled flight - or if I had taken one more fraction of a = second in=20 making a decision I truly could have been in bottom of  a ravine = at the=20 end of the runway.
 
But, the point of my tale is I = suspect that one=20 possible cause might be your engine getting into a higher rpm region = of your=20 fuel map which you perhaps couldn't get to with the larger prop.  = If so?=20 (and a big IF I admit), then if it were too lean the engine would lose = power.  In any case, a hearty pat on the back for handling a very = challenging situation with cool aplomb (well, hell nobody was with you = to say=20 otherwise {:>)
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
 
 Hi, Ed...
I considered that as a = possibility...no, more=20 like a probablility....but I was thinking that when I reduced the = throttle the=20 engine rpm's would have gotten back into the area where it was = programmed=20 correctly (or at least closer to correct).  I throttled all the = way back=20 to 1/4 throttle, and then back to 1/2 throttle, and no improvement. It = was=20 difficult to reduce the throttle on an already "not climbing" = aircraft, but at=20 that point, I was willing to try anything. Could not get it to go = above 2000=20 rpm's, and it was running VERY rough.  Paul Conner
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, February 07, = 2005 9:09=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Bad day = at the=20 airport

On Sunday I decided to do a little = "tweaking"=20 on the ECU fuel mixtures on my 13b powered SQ2000.  I had the = larger 3=20 bladed Performance prop on, and just wasn't getting the rpm's I = wanted, so I=20 put the smaller dia/less pitch prop on and took it to the end of the = runway=20 and once I was lined up on the runway, advanced the throttle to wide = open.=20 RPM's were only around 5100, but I have flown it that way before, so = I=20 decided to go ahead and try to work with the mixture programming at = 5000=20 feet.  Acceleration was normal, liftoff in less than 2000 feet, = and=20 started my climb. At approximately 250 feet, the engine started = failing=20 rapidly. I tried various throttle positions, with no improvement. = Unable to=20 maintain altitude. I immediately started a left turn, hoping maybe = the=20 engine would recover enough to just get me to 500 feet downwind so I = would=20 have a chance of making the runway. No such luck.  I was now = heading=20 back toward the center of the airport at approximately 100 feet and=20 descending.  I wanted to land on the center turn-off section in = the=20 middle of the airport, but that would have me landing straight = towards=20 several parked aircraft and the main hangar.  Not the best=20 option.  There is a newly paved area slightly to my left, where = aircraft may be tied down in the future, but it was empty for now. I = was out=20 of options and altitude. I crossed the runway at less than 50 feet. = I didn't=20 want to land going across the runway, because the grass and mud I = would=20 encounter after rolling across the runway would probably flip the = aircraft=20 over. I headed for the new aircraft tie-down area, and attacked = it at a=20 45 degree angle to get as much "runway" as possible.  I = held it=20 off until I was over the parallel taxiway, and landed on the = parallel=20 taxiway (the short way, of course) and with heavy braking, began = skidding=20 across the aircraft tie-down area. (See attached photos).  I = knew I=20 couldn't stop in that short a distance, but hopefully when I went = off the=20 other end of the pavement, I would not be going as fast.  The = nose was=20 dipped down at an angle from all the heavy braking, so I had a nice = view of=20 what was coming. Grass, mud and a ditch.  The aircraft kept = slowing=20 down, and as I ran out of pavement, I wasn't going all that fast. I = probably=20 only went 10 feet past the end of the paved area into the grass and = came to=20 a stop.  Missed the ditch by almost 5 feet !!!  No = problem...that=20 was fun !!! Just don't care to do it again.  I restarted the = engine and=20 taxiied back to the hangar, pretending nothing had happened. I don't = know=20 what to do at this point.  I don't care to have this much fun = again=20 anytime soon.  I'm torn between a carburetor and a = Cessna.  Paul=20 Conner

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release = Date:=20 2/3/2005

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release = Date:=20 2/3/2005
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