Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao02.cox.net ([68.230.241.37] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 565058 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:40:27 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.37; envelope-from=daveleonard@cox.net Received: from davidandanne ([68.111.224.107]) by fed1rmmtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with SMTP id <20041213064011.QMUR17983.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@davidandanne> for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:40:11 -0500 From: "DaveLeonard" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: RV-3 down Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:40:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0053_01C4E09B.8F90CA00" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C4E09B.8F90CA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rusty, wow! Well done. Sorry to hear but glad everything is ok. I thought you were using a setrab oil cooler like mine. I agree with Finn in that I bet it would be easier to replace the oil cooler than truck it home. I wonder if the high RPM from the c-drive may have created higher pressure in the cooler than the RD1-a/b drive. Still, I think it would be safe to limp home with a replacement cooler (provided that is the problem). You have to acknowledge Tracy and Ed putting so many hours on their stock coolers. I now have 30 hrs on my second Setrab (with an improved installation) so that jury is still out. Only the stock oil cooler has really proven itself. Anyway, I'm sure you are glad you listened to me and started doing more flying than tinkering? Now you have so much more to tinker with. :-) David Leonard The Rotary Roster http://members.aol.com\_ht_a\rotaryroster\index.html Sorry to hear that Rusty. Smelling burning "plastic" brings back memories. I would not rule out that you actually had an oil fire. Oil mist coming into contact with the red-hot exhaust. Fortunately you were able to blow it out by increasing the airflow and the stopped engine stopped pumping oil into the fire. Check for soot on the belly and elevator. I wonder what influence the now closed cowl cheek extensions had on the situation. The prop not turning after the engine quit is not an indication of a blown engine. Especially with the 2.85:1 PSRU. I have never been able to get my prop turning after engine quitting. And that's with 2.17:1. Starter seems to be the only option. For me, removing the wings is a real bitch. Now that you have an OK to repair it on the field, I would seriously consider jerry rigging a standard oil cooler, checking for any real damage (after wiping off all the oil) and try to start the engine, and if OK, fly it home at minimal power. But that's just me. Finn (still not done with the annual and 500 hour maintenance - maybe tomorrow). Russell Duffy wrote: Greetings all, It was a beautiful day to fly, so I finally made it over to see Paul's plastic fantastic in Mobile. The engine was running great, the oil temps were perfect, and I was seeing 235 mph groundspeed as I headed home. I was about 25 miles from my home airport, and started descending from 7500 ft. At about 6000 feet, I started smelling something that smelled like plastic, or insulation burning, smoke started coming in through the vent, and oil covered the canopy. Not good. My primary fear was fire, and my planned course of action was to get on the ground as soon as possible, so I pushed the nose over, and headed for a Navy helicopter field ahead. I did the 121.5 mayday call, squawked 7700, and talked to the controller. He asked if I was going to land at the Spencer Field, or if I could make another airport. The smoke was subsiding, and the engine was still turning, and I thought about trying for another field, but when I tried to throttle up, the prop stopped cold. Needless to say, I confirmed that I was landing at Spencer. Fortunately, I had the field made easily, and had to use full flaps and a slip to make the part of the field I was aiming at. This field is a helicopter training field, and it has 4 runways that form a square, with each runway being maybe 1000-1500 feet long. Lots of grass exists outside of this square. I wanted to head for one of the runways, but it was full of RC model guys. I went instead for the parallel runway on the other side of the field. Still, they were mighty shocked when I came gliding in :-) I landed a little hot, about a third of the way down the runway, and ended up running about 200 ft off into the grass before coming to a stop. Within a minute, there were people from the RC club at the plane, and I could already hear the fire trucks that had been summoned by Pensacola approach. Within just a couple minutes, civilian rescue folks were there, followed shortly afterward by military police, and then by the CO of Whiting NAS. I talked to the Pensacola controller, and got a call from the Birmingham FSDO. Basically, everyone just wanted to know that I was OK. I filled out a few papers for the Navy Police, and I owe the FSDO a statement via fax, but that should be the extent of the paperwork. The CO of Whiting NAS (who controls all the outlying fields) gave me permission to either repair the plane, and fly it out, or disassemble it, and haul it away. The plane was not damaged in the landing, so no problem there. I pulled the top cowl off before it got dark, and just can't see the problem, probably because the oil cooler (evap core) is hard to see without removing the bottom cowl. There's a puddle of oil in the oil cooler scoop, and oil covering the exhaust, and all the bottom of the cowling. I can't prove it yet, but I fully expect to find the evap core split open just like the last one did. Let's just say I won't be using one of those for oil again. The EM-2 was flashing it's ass off, and in the middle of trying to get the plane on the ground, I never even looked at the screen. My initial assumption is that I blew out all the oil, but I won't know until I check the oil level. I don't recall the low oil light coming on, but that doesn't mean it wasn't on. The engine is not seized now, but it does feel low on compression. Once the engine quit, the prop did not turn at all for the duration of the glide. The plan for tomorrow is to remove the wings, with the help of my good RV-8 buddy, and haul the plane back to the hanger. At this point, I don't know quite what I'll do with it from there. My wife was slightly upset by this, but I think she'll get over it. I also have the Slingshot at home already, AND I'm going to have to leave the hanger in a month or so when they rebuild it from the hurricane. Seems like a logistical nightmare. I don't intend to abandon the rotary, but I might re-work the Slingshot first (with the 912S), so I can get something flying. I'd follow that with a rebuild of the RV-3 engine, and a real oil cooler. Once I do that, maybe I'll be ready to tackle the single rotor for the Slingshot, or maybe not :-) Cheers, Rusty (I still smell burning oil, 5 hours later...) ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C4E09B.8F90CA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rusty,=20 wow!  Well done. Sorry to hear but glad everything is ok. =  I=20 thought you were using a setrab oil cooler like mine.  I agree with = Finn in that I bet it would be = easier to replace=20 the oil cooler than truck it home.
 
I = wonder if the=20 high RPM from the c-drive may have created higher pressure in the cooler = than=20 the RD1-a/b drive.  Still, I think it would be safe to limp home = with a=20 replacement cooler (provided that is the problem).  You have to = acknowledge=20 Tracy and Ed putting so many hours on their stock = coolers.
 
I  now have 30=20 hrs on my second Setrab (with an improved installation) so that jury is = still=20 out.  Only the stock oil cooler has really proven=20 itself.
 
Anyway, I'm sure=20 you are glad you listened to me and started doing more flying than=20 tinkering?  Now you have so much more to tinker with. =20 :-)
 

David Leonard
The=20 Rotary Roster
http://members.aol.com\_ht_a\rotaryroster\index.html<= /FONT>=20

 
Sorry=20 to hear that Rusty.

Smelling burning "plastic" brings back = memories. I=20 would not rule out that you actually had an oil fire. Oil mist coming = into=20 contact with the red-hot exhaust. Fortunately you were able to blow it = out by=20 increasing the airflow and the stopped engine stopped pumping oil into = the=20 fire. Check for soot on the belly and elevator.
I wonder what = influence the=20 now closed cowl cheek extensions had on the situation.

The prop = not=20 turning after the engine quit is not an indication of a blown engine.=20 Especially with the 2.85:1 PSRU.
I have never been able to get my = prop=20 turning after engine quitting. And that's with 2.17:1. Starter seems = to be the=20 only option.

For me, removing the wings is a real bitch. Now = that you=20 have an OK to repair it on the field, I would seriously consider jerry = rigging=20 a standard oil cooler, checking for any real damage (after wiping off = all the=20 oil) and try to start the engine, and if OK, fly it home at minimal = power. But=20 that's just me.

Finn (still not done with the annual and 500 = hour=20 maintenance - maybe tomorrow).

Russell Duffy wrote:
Greetings = all,=20
 
It was a = beautiful day=20 to fly, so I finally made it over to see Paul's plastic fantastic in = Mobile.  The engine was running great, the oil temps were = perfect, and=20 I was seeing 235 mph groundspeed as I headed home.  I was about = 25=20 miles from my home airport, and started descending from 7500 = ft.  At=20 about 6000 feet, I started smelling something that smelled like = plastic, or=20 insulation burning, smoke started coming in through the vent, = and oil=20 covered the canopy.  Not = good.  
 
My primary = fear was=20 fire, and my planned course of action was to get on=20 the ground as soon as possible, so I pushed the nose over, = and=20 headed for a Navy helicopter field ahead.  I did = the=20 121.5 mayday call, squawked 7700, and talked to the = controller.  He=20 asked if I was going to land at the Spencer Field, or if I = could=20 make another airport.  The smoke was subsiding, and the engine = was=20 still turning, and I thought about trying for another field, but = when I=20 tried to throttle up, the prop stopped cold.  Needless to = say, I=20 confirmed that I was landing at Spencer.  Fortunately, I had = the field=20 made easily, and had to use full flaps and a slip to make the part = of the=20 field I was aiming at.  
 
This field = is a=20 helicopter training field, and it has 4 runways that form a = square,=20 with each runway being maybe 1000-1500 feet long.  Lots of = grass exists=20 outside of this square.  I wanted to head for one of the = runways, but=20 it was full of RC model guys.  I went instead for the = parallel=20 runway on the other side of the field.  Still, they were mighty = shocked=20 when I came gliding in :-)  I landed a little hot, about a = third=20 of the way down the runway, and ended up running about 200 ft off = into the=20 grass before coming to a stop.
 
Within a = minute, there=20 were people from the RC club at the plane, and I could already hear = the fire=20 trucks that had been summoned by Pensacola approach.  = Within just=20 a couple minutes, civilian rescue folks were there, followed = shortly=20 afterward by military police, and then by the CO of=20 Whiting NAS.  I talked to the Pensacola controller, and = got a call=20 from the Birmingham FSDO.  Basically, everyone just wanted to = know that=20 I was OK.  I filled out a few papers for the Navy Police, and I = owe the=20 FSDO a statement via fax, but that should be the extent of the=20 paperwork.  The CO of Whiting NAS (who controls = all the=20 outlying fields) gave me permission to either repair the plane, and = fly it=20 out, or disassemble it, and haul it=20 away.  
 
The plane = was not=20 damaged in the landing, so no problem there.  I pulled the top = cowl off=20 before it got dark, and just can't see the problem, probably because = the oil=20 cooler (evap core) is hard to see without removing the = bottom=20 cowl.   There's a puddle of oil in the oil = cooler scoop,=20 and oil covering the exhaust, and all the bottom of the = cowling. =20 I can't prove it yet, but I fully expect to find the evap core split = open=20 just like the last one did.  Let's just say I won't = be using=20 one of those for oil again.  
 
The EM-2 = was flashing=20 it's ass off, and in the middle of trying to get the plane on = the=20 ground, I never even looked at the screen.  My initial = assumption=20 is that I blew out all the oil, but I won't know until I check the = oil=20 level.  I don't recall the low oil light coming on, but that = doesn't=20 mean it wasn't on.  The engine is not seized now, but it does = feel low=20 on compression.  Once the engine quit, the prop did=20 not  turn at all for the duration of=20 the glide.    
 
The plan = for tomorrow=20 is to remove the wings, with the help of my good RV-8 buddy, = and haul=20 the plane back to the hanger.  At this point, I don't = know quite=20 what I'll do with it from there.  My wife was slightly upset by = this,=20 but I think she'll get over it.  I also have the Slingshot = at home=20 already, AND I'm going to have to leave the hanger in a month = or so=20 when they rebuild it from the hurricane.  Seems like a = logistical=20 nightmare.  I don't intend to abandon the rotary, but I might = re-work=20 the Slingshot first (with the 912S), so I can get something = flying. =20 I'd follow that with a rebuild of the RV-3 engine, and a real = oil=20 cooler.  Once I do that, maybe I'll be ready to tackle the = single rotor=20 for the Slingshot, or maybe not :-)
 
Cheers,
Rusty (I = still smell=20 burning oil, 5 hours later...)  =20
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