Return-Path: Received: from imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 564321 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:57:43 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.64; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from paul52u7f5qyav ([209.214.45.9]) by imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with SMTP id <20041212145724.CZQA1980.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@paul52u7f5qyav> for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:57:24 -0500 Message-ID: <00bd01c4e05a$e0f2bf20$092dd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: DAR visit? Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:57:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C4E028.95974910" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C4E028.95974910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThanks for sharing that information, Ed...I am going to try both = leaning and richening (on the ground) to try to get my static rpm's = higher. Probably a simple thing to do once I know for certain the = direction to go. I didn't notice any surging of the engine.....Just = that after 1/2 throttle, the more I would advance the throttle, the = slower the engine would turn. (Exact opposite of what the throttle was = doing) and if you continued towards full throttle, the engine probably = would have quit.=20 Glad to be in a club with such accomplished designers/builders. = Hopefully we will help further the momentum of the rotary installation. = More successful flying rotaries will probably entice others to follow, = and the more that follow, the more valuable ideas and information we = will all reap the benefits of. Take care, and thanks for the info!!! = Paul, need more power, Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 6:57 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DAR visit? Congratulations, Paul. A first flight to remember as most are. Good = to see sound decisions and judgement exercised when faced with problems. = =20 4400 rpm is a tad on the low side for the engine to produce good = power. My calculations indicate that if you were at the best power A/F = setting you were producing approx 138 HP. Not familiar with the microtech ECU, however, its been my experience = that if you are overly lean, the engine will surge. Rpm will increase = up into the "lean" region where it will be unable to produce power to = sustain that rpm upon which rpm will decrease until it gets down into a = "richer" region of operation. There it will have the power to produce = power and once again the rpm will start to increase, repeat, repeat, = etc. My engine bogs (depending on exactly what you mean by that) when there = is too much fuel. So your diagnose may be correct - rather than overly = lean it could be overly rich. But I have found the rotary can run = considerably overly rich before bogging. Just wanted convey these thoughts to you as you trouble shoot. Sounds = like you have your temps OK, but remember you were probably not = producing what you would like in terms of power. Temps will go up as = power does. Again, its great having you in the air, welcome to the club. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 6:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DAR visit? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DAR visit? Hi, Rusty....yep....airworthiness certificate in hand. =20 Congrats! =20 Not looking like the greatest choice of wind at your airport = today. I just checked the wx for the area, and find a 15kt gusting to = 22kt, which is almost a direct crosswind from the left. Should ease up = this afternoon, and be much better tomorrow. With that kind of left = crosswind, coupled with my ample left torque, I'd never be able to take = off :-) Cheers, Rusty (more bite than bark)=20 You're correct, Rusty....the winds were a direct crosswind 20 = knots, gusting higher (windsock standing straight out). At = approximately 3:30 P.M. my SQ2000 slipped the surly bounds of = Earth....made a couple circuits around the airport and had an uneventful = (yawn) landing. The precarious part was the take-off and climbout. I = am not getting enough power. From 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, engine = accelerates smoothly and plenty of power. As soon as I try to go above = 1/2 throttle, the engine begins to bog down. Advancing the throttle more = only made it bog down even more. On takeoff roll, I was only able to = get 4400 rpm's at approximately 1/2 throttle. Acceleration felt OK, and = the nosewheel lifted at around 70 knots. Mains lifted off shortly = afterward, but it just didn't want to climb. (Flew fine in ground = effect, of course). Unfortunately, I had reached the point of no return = (short runway) and past the accelerate/stop point, so I was committed. = Found a "V" in the treeline and headed for that. Made = it...(whew)....continued slow climb to 2000 feet, made a couple of = circuits around the airport and had a smooth landing (considering the = strong, gusty crosswinds). Down and stopped by mid field. =20 I had a few "bugs" to work out, like tightening the tension = on the nosewheel, so after 3 trips to the runway and back to the hangar, = by the time I got to the runway the fourth time, water temperatures were = up to 190 degrees. Fortunately, on climbout they started dropping, and = by the time I was downwind, they were stable at 170. I am pleased that = the temperature decreased in the climb.=20 I have to work on the power problem ASAP. I'm thinking it is = mixture related. I had programed the MicroTech ECU to be 10 percent = leaner (for all throttle settings), and perhaps that was a mistake. If = I remember correctly, you need sufficient air and sufficient fuel to = make power. Because the butterfly in the throttlebody continues opening = past 1/2 throttle, I'm reaonably certain that I am getting more air past = 1/2 throttle. I am assuming that I am not getting more fuel coming in = past that 1/2 throttle position, causing the engine to bog down past 1/2 = throttle. Best RPM I could obtain was 4400 rpm (in cruise with the prop = unloaded), and with a 2.19:1 gear reduction,that puts my max rpm on the = prop at only 2000. Barely enough to fly, let alone climb out. Will = continue problem solving and pass on results. On the positive side, = first flight was successful, aircraft flew well, and no-one got hurt. I = have to count that as a success. Take care. Paul Conner, Mobile, AL ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C4E028.95974910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Thanks for sharing that information, = Ed...I am=20 going to try both leaning and richening (on the ground) to try to get my = static=20 rpm's higher.  Probably a simple thing to do once I know for = certain the=20 direction to go.  I didn't notice any surging of the = engine.....Just that=20 after 1/2 throttle, the more I would advance the throttle, the slower = the engine=20 would turn. (Exact opposite of what the throttle was doing) and if you = continued=20 towards full throttle, the engine probably would have quit. =
      Glad to = be in a club=20 with such accomplished designers/builders.  Hopefully we will help = further=20 the momentum of the rotary installation.  More successful flying = rotaries=20 will probably entice others to follow, and the more that follow, the = more=20 valuable ideas and information we will all reap the benefits of.  = Take=20 care, and thanks for the info!!!  Paul, need more power,=20 Conner
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 = 6:57=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DAR = visit?

Congratulations, Paul.  A first = flight to=20 remember as most are.  Good to see sound decisions and = judgement=20 exercised when faced with problems.  
 
 4400 rpm is a tad on the = low side for=20 the engine to produce good power.  My calculations indicate = that if=20 you were at the best power A/F setting you were producing approx 138=20 HP.
 
Not familiar with the microtech ECU, = however, its=20 been my experience that if you are overly lean, the engine will = surge. =20 Rpm will increase up into the "lean" region where it will be unable to = produce=20 power to sustain that rpm upon which rpm will decrease until it gets = down into=20 a "richer" region of operation.  There it will have the power to = produce=20 power and once again the rpm will start to increase, repeat, repeat,=20 etc.
 
My engine bogs (depending on exactly = what you=20 mean by that) when there is too much fuel.  So your diagnose may = be=20 correct - rather than overly lean it could be overly = rich.  But I=20 have found the rotary can run considerably overly rich before=20 bogging.
 
Just wanted convey these thoughts to = you as you=20 trouble shoot.  Sounds like you have your temps OK, but remember = you were=20 probably not producing what you would like in terms of power. Temps = will go up=20 as power does.
 
Again, its great having you in the = air, welcome=20 to the club.
 
Ed
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, December 11, = 2004 6:22=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DAR=20 visit?

 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, December = 11, 2004=20 11:40 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = DAR=20 visit?

Hi, = Rusty....yep....airworthiness=20 certificate in hand.   
 
Congrats!  
 
Not looking like the greatest choice of = wind at your=20 airport today.  I just checked the wx for the area, and find = a 15kt=20 gusting to 22kt, which is almost a direct crosswind from the = left. =20 Should ease up this afternoon, and be much better = tomorrow. =20 With that kind of left crosswind, coupled with my ample left = torque, I'd=20 never be able to take off :-)
 
Cheers,
Rusty (more bite than=20 bark) 
 
You're correct, Rusty....the winds were = a direct=20 crosswind 20 knots, gusting higher (windsock standing straight = out). =20 At approximately 3:30 P.M.  my SQ2000 slipped the surly = bounds of=20 Earth....made a couple circuits around the airport and had an = uneventful=20 (yawn) landing.  The precarious part was the take-off and=20 climbout.  I am not getting enough power.  From 1/4 to = 1/2=20 throttle, engine accelerates smoothly and plenty of power. As soon = as I=20 try to go above 1/2 throttle, the engine begins to bog down. = Advancing the=20 throttle more only made it bog down even more.  On takeoff = roll, I=20 was only able to get 4400 rpm's at approximately 1/2 throttle.=20 Acceleration felt OK, and the nosewheel lifted at around 70 knots. = Mains=20 lifted off shortly afterward, but it just didn't want to climb. = (Flew fine=20 in ground effect, of course).  Unfortunately, I had reached = the point=20 of no return (short runway) and past the accelerate/stop point, so = I was=20 committed.  Found a "V" in the treeline and headed for = that. =20 Made it...(whew)....continued slow climb to 2000 feet, made a = couple of=20 circuits around the airport and had a smooth landing (considering = the=20 strong, gusty crosswinds).  Down and stopped by mid = field. =20
     I had a few = "bugs" to=20 work out, like tightening the tension on the nosewheel, so after 3 = trips=20 to the runway and back to the hangar, by the time = I got to the=20 runway the fourth time, water temperatures were up to 190 = degrees. =20 Fortunately, on climbout they started dropping, and by the time I = was=20 downwind, they were stable at 170.  I am pleased that the = temperature=20 decreased in the climb.
     I have to work = on the=20 power problem ASAP.  I'm thinking it is mixture related. I = had=20 programed the MicroTech ECU to be 10 percent leaner (for all = throttle=20 settings), and perhaps that was a mistake.  If I remember = correctly,=20 you need sufficient air and sufficient fuel to make power.  = Because=20 the butterfly in the throttlebody continues opening past 1/2 = throttle, I'm=20 reaonably certain that I am getting more air past 1/2 throttle. I = am=20 assuming that I am not getting more fuel coming in past that 1/2 = throttle=20 position, causing the engine to bog down past 1/2 throttle.  = Best RPM=20 I could obtain was 4400 rpm (in cruise with the prop unloaded), = and with a=20 2.19:1 gear reduction,that puts my max rpm on the prop at only = 2000.=20 Barely enough to fly, let alone climb out. Will continue problem = solving=20 and pass on results.  On the positive side, first flight was=20 successful, aircraft flew well, and no-one got hurt.  I have = to count=20 that as a success.  Take care.  Paul Conner, Mobile,=20 = AL
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