Return-Path: Received: from mail.tsisp.com ([65.23.108.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.1) with ESMTP-TLS id 409415 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:41:58 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.23.108.44; envelope-from=steve@tsisp.com Received: from stevehome by mail.tsisp.com (Technical Support Inc.) with SMTP id CQA74584 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:41:25 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Steve Brooks" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:43:02 -0400 Message-ID: <005101c499d2$44138b90$6400a8c0@WORKGROUP.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01C499B0.BD01EB90" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C499B0.BD01EB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Limp home modeRandy, From what I understand, there have been a few instances of rotaries losing their coolant, for one reason or another, and continuing to fly to the nearest airport and landing safely. Once shut down though, the engine is toast at that point. This is due to the steel rotors and aluminum rotor housings. They do not swell and seize like a standard piston engine. Someone else with more direct knowledge of this may be able to add to this. The docile failure modes of the rotary though, is a strong motivator to using the rotary engine. I have never heard of a sudden catastrophic failure that led to the engine stopping due to mechanical failure. I have heard of several instances of Lycomings and Continentals failing, like when they drop a valve, or lose a cylinder, or lose oil pressure and seize up. There are some builders using series water pumps (EWP) on their engines. That may also be of interest to you. You can check the archives for information on those. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Smith, Randy Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode Yes I see. Ok that deals with the ignition. What I am interested in is the scenario of coolant loss, a computer that only fires, say, every third revolution so that although the engine is producing only partial power, it is also producing minimum heat. Still enough to stay airborne, and able to be cooled with the oil alone. Is this possible? -Randy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode Randy, Tracy Crook's controller the EC-2 goes "limp Home" mode one better. It has 2 separate computers, an "A" and a "B". If one fails, you can flip to the other one. It also has an engine monitor (EM-2) that works with it to monitor several engine parameters. Check out his web site : http://www.rotaryaviation.com/ Steve Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Smith, Randy Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Limp home mode Gentlepeople, I am rather new to the list and normally I just lurk until I have something to say. Well, in breaking with that mode I have some thoughts that I would like some opinions on so if you're game, here goes. 1. I am building a Cozy MKIV. It uses an NACA scoop embedded in the belly to provide cooling air. I am thinking of not building the NACA scoop as I plan to use some sort of Meredith effect scoop/plenum (ala the P-51) for cooling. Thoughts? 2. I plan to fly this plane on long flights over water (around the world is one of my goals.) Is there an ignition/injection system that provides some sort of limp home capability such as what is in the Cadillac Northstar systems that allows for intermittent firing of the rotors? This to provide partial power in situations where I lose coolant overboard and hopefully, relying on oil cooling, continue to safety. If not, what is the proper way to ensure redundancy of the cooling system? 3. In reading several web sites regarding around the world travel, it appears that apart from endless bureaucracy and outrageous landing/handling fees, the largest problem is fuel availability. Most parts of the world have no use for 100ll or appear to have never heard of it. (just kidding, it has to be specially ordered in many places and sometimes it is quite suspect.) Is the rotary particular about the fuel used? I am interested in the SCORE technology that John Deere came up with and would really love a diesel rotary in this regard. Diesel/Jet A/Kerosene is available almost everywhere. That is enough for now. My brain hurts. -Randy "Still looking for a ride to Rough River" Smith Columbia, SC ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C499B0.BD01EB90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Limp home mode
Randy,
From=20 what I understand, there have been a few instances of rotaries losing = their=20 coolant, for one reason or another, and continuing to fly to the nearest = airport=20 and landing safely.  Once shut down though, the engine is toast at = that=20 point.  This is due to the steel rotors and aluminum rotor = housings. =20 They do not swell and seize like a standard piston engine.  Someone = else=20 with more direct knowledge of this may be able to add to=20 this.
 
The=20 docile failure modes of the rotary though, is a strong motivator to = using the=20 rotary engine.  I have never heard of a sudden catastrophic failure = that=20 led to the engine stopping due to mechanical failure.  I have heard = of=20 several instances of Lycomings and Continentals failing, like when they = drop a=20 valve, or lose a cylinder, or lose oil pressure and seize=20 up.
 
There=20 are some builders using series water pumps (EWP) on their engines.  = That=20 may also be of interest to you. You can check the archives for = information on=20 those.
 
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Smith,=20 Randy
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:31 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home=20 mode

Yes I=20 see.  Ok that deals with the ignition.  What I am interested = in is=20 the scenario of coolant loss, a computer that only fires, say, every = third=20 revolution so that although the engine is producing only partial = power, it is=20 also producing minimum heat.  Still enough to stay airborne, and = able to=20 be cooled with the oil alone.  Is this=20 possible?

 

-Randy

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Steve Brooks
Sent: Monday, September 13, = 2004 4:22=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp = home=20 mode

 

Randy,

Tracy = Crook's=20 controller the EC-2 goes "limp Home" mode one better.  It has 2 = separate=20 computers, an "A" and a "B".  If one fails, you can flip to the = other=20 one.  It also has an engine monitor (EM-2) that works with it to = monitor=20 several engine parameters.

 

Check out = his web=20 site : http://www.rotaryaviation.com/

 

Steve=20 Brooks

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On=20 Behalf Of Smith,=20 Randy
Sent: Monday, September 13, = 2004 3:37=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Limp = home=20 mode

Gentlepeople,

I am rather = new to the=20 list and normally I just lurk until I have something to=20 say.  Well, in breaking with that = mode I=20 have some thoughts that I would like some opinions on so if = you’re game,=20 here goes…

1.     =20 I am=20 building a Cozy MKIV.  It uses an NACA scoop embedded in the = belly to=20 provide cooling air.  I am thinking of not building the NACA = scoop as I=20 plan to use some sort of Meredith effect=20 scoop/plenum (ala the P-51) for cooling.  Thoughts?

2.     =20 I plan=20 to fly this plane on long flights over water (around the world is = one of my=20 goals.) Is there an = ignition/injection system=20 that provides some sort of limp home capability such as what=20 is in the Cadillac Northstar systems that allows for intermittent = firing of=20 the rotors?  This to provide partial = power in=20 situations where I lose coolant overboard and hopefully, relying on = oil=20 cooling, continue to safety.  If not, what is the proper way to = ensure=20 redundancy of the cooling system?

3.     =20 In=20 reading several web sites regarding around the world travel, it = appears that=20 apart from endless bureaucracy and outrageous landing/handling fees, = the=20 largest problem is fuel availability.  Most parts=20 of the world have no use for 100ll or appear to have never heard of = it.=20 (just kidding, it has to be specially ordered in many=20 places and sometimes it is quite=20 suspect.)  Is the rotary particular about the fuel used?  = I am=20 interested in the SCORE technology that John Deere came up with and = would=20 really love a diesel rotary in this regard.  = Diesel/Jet=20 A/Kerosene is available almost = everywhere.

That is = enough for=20 now.  My brain hurts.

-Randy=20 “Still=20 looking for a ride to Rough River”=20 Smith

Columbia, SC

------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C499B0.BD01EB90--