Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao08.cox.net ([68.230.241.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2) with ESMTP id 374316 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:55:28 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.31; envelope-from=daveleonard@cox.net Received: from davidandanne ([68.111.224.107]) by fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02.01 201-2131-111-104-103-20040709) with SMTP id <20040822185458.OMEW26704.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@davidandanne> for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:54:58 -0400 From: "DaveLeonard" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Compressor maps Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:55:00 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C4883E.DA55C320" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C4883E.DA55C320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, like you I am working on the ultimate turbo installation and am trying to better understand these compressor maps. I think that extrapolating the maps to altitude is going to be inaccurate. First. theses maps were all created by testing at or near sea level. While the turbo RPM required to achieve a particular pressure & air flow is likely going to remain relatively unchanged, other info gleaned from the turbo map might be different at altitude. I do to know the particular qualities of a compressor that determine the choke and surge limits of that particular compressor, so this are just a random guesses on my part. One thing is for sure, the force (and/or work) required to produce a PR of say 2.5 will be less at altitude than at sea level. How does this play into the shape of the compressor maps? I'm not sure. I suspect that the choke curve (seen in my mind as the airflow limit) is a function of inlet and outlet sizes, and turbine size and shape. Since the density of the air up high is thinner and the resistance of (turbulent) air through a tube depends on its density, I suspect that the choke curve of a give compressor will shift to the right at altitude. I also suspect that the surge portion of the serve may be based partly on the force (torque) the compressor is able to handle. This is because that is the high torque portion of the curve. Qualities such as axle thickness, blade shape and thickness, blade angle of attack, and clearance to the compressor housing may play a part. Specifically, blade 'stall' is a highly suspect in my mind as the cause of 'surge'. I believe that the gas turbine guys even call them compressor stalls. That being said, the lower torque required at altitude will decrease the tendency of the the blades to stall at a given RPM and air flow (just like unloading the G's will allow a wing to fly at a lower airspeed). This will shift the surge line to the left. Thus, my guess is that compressor maps have more area at altitude. It is also probably easier to get into over speed at altitude because the choke limit will move up some into the over speed area. Regardless of my guess on which direction the curves move one thing is for sure, they will change at least a little. Now is when we could use all the good research probably done by Rayjay etc.. when they came out with all the certified turbos. Notice they never mention the A/R or give a compression Map for any of the certified turbos. Just what airplane to put it on and where to send the money. JMHO, Dave Leonard ---------------------- Ed, I am trying to work my way through the compressor maps and formulae that I have stumbled across in the past few days, and looking at your formula, I am able to make sense of it.. and I am using a website with a calculator built in that reproduces your values...but the value of 277 cfm.. thats how much air the engine is pumping normally aspirated at wide open throttle.. right? So plotting this at 1.0 atm and 277 cfm wouldnt event be on the "map" at all.. If I am understanding this at all. Using the TD06H-20G map listed at http://cybrina.mine.nu/MR2_Docs/compressor_flow_maps.htm (and attached to this mail) if I wanted to maintain 23 PSIA (8.3 PSIG) boost (48" map). which comes out to a presure ratio of 1.6.. . then I would need to calculate the CFM required at 1.6 PR.. At 3000 rpm I am getting 222 CFM and At 6000 rpm I am getting 444 CFM... (1.6 PR), which falls in the map on that site.... To take it further.. if I wanted to maintain that amount of boost (23 PSIA/8.3 PSIG) to say.. 12,000 feet.. Ambient pressure at 12k is a ballpark value 18"/9psi.. the pressure ratio there is 2.5... 3000 rpm, PR 2.5, comes out to 347 CFM.. appears to fall just left of where I'm told the "surge line" is 6000 rpm, PR 2.5 equals 697 CFM and falls to the right of the 65% efficiency island.. If I am interpreting this correctly that means that this turbo would be able to give the desired performance but would NOT be able to maintain 23" absolute boost to 12k feet.... 5000 rpm at 2.5 PR gives 578 CFM and DOES fall within the map though... I am throwing all this out there to see if I am grasping the concept clearly or not.. and to see what I need to adjust conceptually.. I am also guessing that the .55 value listed below by Mike, is BSFC.. correct? I am trying to comprehend the "volumetric efficiency" concept as it relates to pressurized/charged intakes.. are we assuming a value of 1.0/100% or is this not realistic? What about porting... will that improve the VE? (I'm wanting to say YES) Iis it realistic or even possible to have a VE > 1.0/100%? The reason for all the head scratching on my end is that I have several turbo 13b cores.. but none of them have turbo's attached.. so I get to pick what I want on there.. but I want to make sure I have a grasp of the concept before I start turbo shopping.. I must admit that this listserv group has been a literal gold mine of information. I have exposed to a truckload of data in the past 2 weeks and am just trying to organize it at this point. Dave Staten 2nd Gen 13B rebuild in progress.. Ed Anderson wrote: Mike makes a good point. While the official displacement of the 13B is 1.308 liters (actually 1308 cc), for airflow/power purposes it acts the same as a 4 cylinder engine of 40 CID (each cylinder) or 160 CID or 2.6 Liters. CFM = (4*40)RPM/(1728*2) so for 6000 rpm, CFM = 160*6000/(1728*2) = 277.77 CFM at 100 Ve Some compressor maps use CFM on the X axis and some use mass flow usually Lbs/min. My spreadsheet automatically calculates the lbs/min of air flow for every rpm and power situation. Or its easy enough to calculate. Just multiply your air flow volume in CFM by 0.076 for sea level density. So in this case 277.77*0.76 = 21.1052 lbm/min Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Robert" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Compressor maps John Slade wrote: John, here is a URL to a pretty good discussion on reading compressor maps with examples http://cybrina.mine.nu/MR2_Docs/compressor_flow_maps.htm That's great, Ed. And you did it in one sentence. :) Do you happen to know the engine capacity (in litres) and the volumetric efficiency of an REW engine? Regards, John John, the auto people use 2.6 litres and .55 for those turbo map calcs. HTH, Mike Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C4883E.DA55C320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David, like you I=20 am working on the ultimate turbo installation and am trying to better = understand=20 these compressor maps.  I think that extrapolating the maps to = altitude is=20 going to be inaccurate.
 
First. theses maps=20 were all created by testing at or near sea level.  While the turbo = RPM=20 required to achieve a particular pressure & air flow is likely going = to=20 remain relatively unchanged, other info gleaned from the turbo map might = be=20 different at altitude.
 
I do to know=20 the particular qualities of a compressor that determine the choke and = surge=20 limits of that particular compressor, so this are just a random guesses = on my=20 part.  One thing is for sure, the force (and/or work) required to = produce a=20 PR of say 2.5 will be less at altitude than at sea level.  How does = this=20 play into the shape of the compressor maps?  I'm not=20 sure.    I suspect that the choke curve (seen in my mind = as the=20 airflow limit) is a function of inlet and outlet sizes, = and turbine=20 size and shape.  Since the density of the air up high = is thinner=20 and the resistance of (turbulent) air through a tube depends on its = density,  I suspect that the choke curve of a give compressor will = shift to=20 the right at altitude.
 
I = also suspect that=20 the surge portion of the serve may be based partly on the force (torque) = the=20 compressor is able to handle.  This is because that is the high = torque=20 portion of the curve.  Qualities such as axle thickness, blade = shape and=20 thickness, blade angle of attack, and clearance to the compressor = housing may=20 play a part.  Specifically, blade 'stall' is a highly suspect in my = mind as=20 the cause of 'surge'.  I believe that the gas turbine guys even = call them=20 compressor stalls.  That being said, the lower torque required at = altitude=20 will decrease the tendency of the the blades to stall at a given RPM and = air=20 flow (just like unloading the G's will allow a wing to fly at a lower=20 airspeed).   This will shift the surge line to the=20 left. 
 
Thus, = my guess is=20 that compressor maps have more area at altitude.  It is also = probably=20 easier to get into over speed at altitude because the choke limit = will=20 move up some into the over speed area.    Regardless = of my=20 guess on which direction the curves move one thing is for sure, they = will change=20 at least a little.  Now is when we could use all the good research = probably=20 done by Rayjay etc.. when they came out with all the certified = turbos. =20 Notice they never mention the A/R or give a compression Map for any of = the=20 certified turbos.  Just what airplane to put it on and where to = send the=20 money.
 
JMHO,
Dave=20 Leonard
 
----------------------
 Ed,

    I=20 am trying to work my way through the compressor  maps and formulae = that I=20 have stumbled across in the past few days, and looking at your formula, = I am=20 able to make sense of it.. and I am using a website with a calculator = built in=20 that reproduces your values...but the value of 277 cfm.. thats how much = air the=20 engine is pumping normally aspirated at wide open throttle..=20 right?
 
So plotting this at 1.0 atm and 277 cfm wouldnt = event be on=20 the "map" at all.. If I am understanding this at all.
 
Using = the=20 TD06H-20G map listed at http://= cybrina.mine.nu/MR2_Docs/compressor_flow_maps.htm=20 (and attached to this mail)
if I wanted to maintain 23 PSIA (8.3 = PSIG) boost=20 (48" map). which comes out to a presure ratio of 1.6..
. then I would = need to=20 calculate the CFM required at 1.6 PR..
 
At 3000 rpm I am = getting 222=20 CFM and
At 6000 rpm I am getting 444 CFM... (1.6 PR),
which falls = in the=20 map on that site....
 
To take it further.. if I wanted to = maintain=20 that amount of boost (23 PSIA/8.3 PSIG) to say.. 12,000 = feet..
Ambient=20 pressure at 12k is a ballpark value 18"/9psi.. the pressure ratio there = is=20 2.5...

3000 rpm, PR 2.5, comes out to 347 CFM.. appears to fall = just left=20 of where I'm told the "surge line" is
6000 rpm, PR 2.5 equals 697 CFM = and=20 falls to the right of the 65% efficiency island..

If I am = interpreting=20 this correctly that means that this turbo would be able to give the = desired=20 performance but would NOT be able to maintain 23" absolute boost to 12k=20 feet....

5000 rpm at 2.5 PR gives 578 CFM and DOES fall within = the map=20 though...

I am throwing all this out there to see if I am = grasping the=20 concept clearly or not.. and to see what I need to adjust conceptually.. =

I am also guessing that the .55 value listed below by Mike, is = BSFC..=20 correct?
 
I am trying to comprehend the "volumetric = efficiency"=20 concept as it relates to pressurized/charged intakes.. are we assuming a = value=20 of 1.0/100% or is this not realistic? What about porting... will that = improve=20 the VE? (I'm wanting to say YES) Iis it realistic or even possible to = have a VE=20 > 1.0/100%?
 
The reason for all the head scratching on my = end is=20 that I have several turbo 13b cores.. but none of them have turbo's = attached..=20 so I get to pick what I want on there.. but I want to make sure I have a = grasp=20 of the concept before I start turbo shopping..
 
I must admit = that=20 this listserv group has been a literal gold mine of information. I have = exposed=20 to a truckload of data in the past 2 weeks and am just trying to = organize it at=20 this point.
 
Dave Staten
2nd Gen 13B rebuild in=20 progress..

Ed Anderson wrote:
Mike makes a good point.  While the official displacement of =
the 13B is
1.308 liters (actually 1308 cc), for airflow/power purposes it acts the =
same
as a 4 cylinder engine of 40 CID (each cylinder) or 160 CID or 2.6 =
Liters.

CFM =3D (4*40)RPM/(1728*2) so for 6000 rpm, CFM =3D 160*6000/(1728*2) =
=3D 277.77
CFM at 100 Ve

Some compressor maps use CFM on the X axis and some use mass flow =
usually
Lbs/min.  My spreadsheet automatically calculates the lbs/min of air =
flow
for every rpm and power situation.  Or its easy enough to calculate.

Just multiply your air flow volume in CFM by 0.076 for sea level =
density.
So in this case 277.77*0.76 =3D 21.1052 lbm/min



Ed
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Mike Robert" <pmrobert@bellsouth.net>=

To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.n=
et>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Compressor maps


  
John Slade wrote:

    
John, here is a URL to a =
pretty good discussion on reading compressor
maps with examples
 http://=
cybrina.mine.nu/MR2_Docs/compressor_flow_maps.htm

That's great, Ed. And you did it in one sentence. :)
Do you happen to know the engine capacity (in litres) and the
volumetric efficiency of an REW engine?
Regards,
John

      
John, the auto people use 2.6 =
litres and .55 for those turbo map calcs.

HTH, Mike

    
 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
 Archive:   http://lancai=
ronline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
        



  
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