Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2) with ESMTP id 362198 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:59:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from EDWARD (cpe-069-132-183-211.carolina.rr.com [69.132.183.211]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i7CCw9iB008189 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002501c4806c$056cdba0$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] coolant temps Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:58:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C4804A.7E0EF060"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C4804A.7E0EF060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0022_01C4804A.7E0EF060" ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C4804A.7E0EF060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marvin, From what I can see looking at the characteristic of the = NPG is that whatever advantages it conveys, it has a reduced specific = heat (heat carrying capability) compared to water or a 50/50% mix. = Lower by approx 29-34% than water and 13 -20% less than the traditional = 50/50 mix. That being the case, the NPG must operate at a higher = temperature (assuming flow rate is unchanged) to carry away the same = amount of heat per unit time out of the engine. For example if water = carried away 100 BTU of heat per unit time at say 200F, then at the same = flow rate the NPG temp would probably need to be closer to 230F to = carry away to same heat quantity at the same flow rate. So I am not = surprised to see elevated temps over water or 50/50 mix. Interesting to see that its viscosity is much higher than water - = any affect on pump energy required??Flow rates? So for your project (recip engine?) which can with stand a higher = operating temperature than the rotary, it may be suitable particularly = if concerned about corrosion of the magnesium- but you will see higher = coolant temps. So what you are seeing in temps is probably not = unreasonable.=20 Thats my take on it. Ed Ed Anderson COMPARISON OF COOLANT PARAMETERS=20 Water 50/50 EGW Evans NPG Evans NPG+=20 =20 Boiling Point 121=B0 C (250=B0 F) (1 atm plus 15 psig) 129=B0 C (264=B0 F) (1 atm plus 15 psig) 187=B0 C (369=B0 F) (1 atm plus 0 psig) 191=B0 C (375=B0 F) (1 atm plus 0 psig)=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Viscosity =20 10=B0 C (50=B0 F) cp 1.2 5.0 115 58=20 80=B0 C (176=B0 F) cp .37 1.0 4.5 3.7=20 100=B0 C (212=B0 F) cp .28 0.7 2.8 2.3=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Density =20 20=B0 C (68=B0 F) spec grav 1.00 1.066 1.038 1.091=20 20=B0 C (68=B0 F) lbs/gal 8.32 8.87 8.64 9.08=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Specific Heat =20 80=B0 C (176=B0 F) Btu/lb/=B0F 1.00 0.81 0.68 0.64=20 100=B0 C (212=B0 F) Btu/lb/=B0F 1.01 0.82 0.71 0.66=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Heat of Vaporization cal/mole 9,700 9,800 12,500 12,050=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Vapor Pressure =20 80=B0 C (176=B0 F) mm Hg 360 270 8 6=20 80=B0 C (176=B0 F) kPa 475 360 11 8=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Surface Tension =20 25=B0 C (77=B0 F) dyn/cm 72 56 36 44=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - =20 Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Marvin Kaye" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:28 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] coolant temps > I've got a question regarding coolant temps I hope some of you can = help with.=20 > We've been running the Eagle540 recently, getting ready for that = impending=20 > first flight. Our installed instrumentation on the coolant side is = located on=20 > the higher pressure, high temp engine outlet side of the coolant = circuit...=20 > the flow comes out of the top rear of the engine to the thermostat = housing.=20 > Temp sensor is installed in the t-stat housing. From there it goes = through=20 > the firewall and down to the radiator, then returns back through the = firewall=20 > and on to the water pump. The water pump forces the coolant into the = block=20 > and the circuit is complete. We are not running 50/50 = water/anti-freeze=20 > because of the magnesium components... we are running straight Evans = NPG.=20 > During recent runs (engine RPM about 2000RPM, the rev limiter is set = at 3800,=20 > so we're just over 50%) we're seeing the high temp side over 230 = degrees. NPG=20 > doesn't boil until somewhere around 400, but we obviously don't have = any=20 > desire to operate at that kind of temperature. For those of you who = are=20 > instrumented both before and after the radiator (evap cores, whatever) = what=20 > kind of temperature spread are you seeing? I suspect I'll eventually = be=20 > instrumenting the cool side of the circuit, but would like to know = what to=20 > expect on the hot side. If we're seeing a 40 degree delta across the = radiator=20 > (I imagine) is 250-260 considered too hot as a redline for the hot = side? (Our=20 > oil temps are very well behaved, we still haven't exceeded 150 on the = oil cool=20 > side and TITs are running 1350-1400 at these reduced power levels... = sounds ok=20 > to me, but what do I know?) TIA for any info you're willing to share. >=20 > > =20 >=20 > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C4804A.7E0EF060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Marvin, From what I = can see=20 looking at the characteristic of the NPG is that whatever = advantages it=20 conveys, it has a  reduced specific heat (heat carrying = capability)=20 compared to water or a 50/50% mix.  Lower by approx 29-34% = than water=20 and 13 -20% less than the traditional 50/50 mix.  That being = the=20 case, the NPG must operate at a higher temperature (assuming flow = rate is=20 unchanged) to carry away the same amount of heat per = unit time out of=20 the engine.   For example if water carried=20 away 100 BTU of heat per unit time at say 200F, then at = the same=20 flow rate  the NPG temp = would probably=20 need to be closer to 230F to carry away to same heat quantity at = the same=20 flow rate. So I am not = surprised to see=20 elevated temps over water or 50/50 mix.
 
Interesting to see = that its=20 viscosity is much higher than water - any affect on pump energy=20 required??Flow rates?
 
So for your project = (recip=20 engine?) which  can with stand a higher=20 operating temperature than the rotary, it may be suitable=20 particularly if concerned about corrosion of the magnesium- but = you will=20 see higher coolant temps.  So what you are seeing in temps is = probably not unreasonable. 
 
Thats my take on = it.
 
Ed
 
Ed = Anderson
 
 
COMPARISON OF = COOLANT=20 PARAMETERS
    Water 50/50 EGW Evans NPG Evans = NPG+
           
Boiling = Point   121=B0 C (250=B0 = F)
(1 atm plus 15=20 psig)		 129=B0 C (264=B0 = F)
(1 atm plus 15=20 psig) 		187=B0 C (369=B0 = F)
(1 atm plus 0=20 psig) 		191=B0 C (375=B0 = F)
(1 atm plus 0=20 psig)
Viscosity          
    10=B0 C (50=B0=20 F) cp 1.2 5.0 115 58
    80=B0 C=20 (176=B0 F) cp .37 1.0 4.5 3.7
   100=B0 C (212=B0=20 F) cp .28 0.7 2.8 2.3
 =20
Density          
    20=B0 C (68=B0=20 F) spec grav 1.00 1.066 1.038 1.091
    20=B0 C (68=B0=20 F) lbs/gal 8.32 8.87 8.64 9.08
Specific = Heat          
    80=B0 C=20 (176=B0 F) Btu/lb/=B0F 1.00 0.81 0.68 0.64
   100=B0 C (212=B0=20 F) Btu/lb/=B0F 1.01 0.82 0.71 0.66
Heat of = Vaporization cal/mole 9,700 9,800 12,500 12,050
Vapor Pressure =          
    80=B0 C=20 (176=B0 F) mm Hg 360 270 8 6
    80=B0 C=20 (176=B0 F) kPa 475 360 11 8
Surface Tension =          
    25=B0 C (77=B0=20 F) dyn/cm 72 56 36 44
3D"to
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Kaye" <marv@lancaironline.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:28=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] coolant=20 temps

> I've got a question regarding coolant temps I hope some of = you can=20 help with.
>  We've been running the Eagle540 recently, = getting=20 ready for that impending
> first flight.  Our installed=20 instrumentation on the coolant side is located on
> the higher = pressure,=20 high temp engine outlet side of the coolant circuit...
> the flow = comes=20 out of the top rear of the engine to the thermostat housing.
> =  Temp=20 sensor is installed in the t-stat housing.  From there it goes = through=20
> the firewall and down to the radiator, then returns back = through the=20 firewall
> and on to the water pump.  The water pump forces = the=20 coolant into the block
> and the circuit is complete.  We = are not=20 running 50/50 water/anti-freeze
> because of the magnesium = components...=20 we are running straight Evans NPG.
>  During recent runs = (engine RPM=20 about 2000RPM, the rev limiter is set at 3800,
> so we're just = over 50%)=20 we're seeing the high temp side over 230 degrees.  NPG
> = doesn't=20 boil until somewhere around 400, but we obviously don't have any =
> desire=20 to operate at that kind of temperature.  For those of you who are =
>=20 instrumented both before and after the radiator (evap cores, whatever) = what=20
> kind of temperature spread are you seeing?  I suspect I'll = eventually be
> instrumenting the cool side of the circuit, but = would=20 like to know what to
> expect on the hot side.  If we're = seeing a 40=20 degree delta across the radiator
> (I imagine) is 250-260 = considered too=20 hot as a redline for the hot side?  (Our
> oil temps are = very well=20 behaved, we still haven't exceeded 150 on the oil cool
> side and = TITs=20 are running 1350-1400 at these reduced power levels... sounds ok =
> to me,=20 but what do I know?)  TIA for any info you're willing to = share.
>=20
>      <Marv>
>    =
>=20
> >>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html> ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C4804A.7E0EF060-- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C4804A.7E0EF060 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="up1.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.evanscooling.com/graphics/up1.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD//gASQWRvYmUgSW1hZ2VSZWFkef/sABFEdWNreQABAAQAAAA8 AAD/7gAmQWRvYmUAZMAAAAABAwAVBAMGCg0AAAHkAAACMQAAApcAAAL8/9sAhAAGBAQEBQQGBQUG CQYFBgkLCAYGCAsMCgoLCgoMEAwMDAwMDBAMDg8QDw4MExMUFBMTHBsbGxwfHx8fHx8fHx8fAQcH Bw0MDRgQEBgaFREVGh8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8fHx8f Hx8fHx//wgARCAANAA0DAREAAhEBAxEB/8QAoQABAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwQFAQADAQEAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBRAAAAQGAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECFSAhMSIUJQMEBREAAQIFBAMAAAAAAAAA AAAAARECABIDBBQhMUITYYEyEgACAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECABQRMBAAICAQQBBQAAAAAAAAAA AQARITFBUWFxkdEQgcHh8f/aAAwDAQACEQMRAAABLs5YVppcAf/aAAgBAQABBQLhcO16+4c1POZu s7//2gAIAQIAAQUCkSbQVB//2gAIAQMAAQUCg//aAAgBAgIGPwKnh//aAAgBAwIGPwKH/9oACAEB AQY/ArtmVWZb0qj1le4cigEC1yavaFaHzu+ShJ320i8xQQO9/YGFRMvkCOeXJ7lj/9oACAEBAwE/ IRTl4MMGdR8ERNvtDsA5WAviJtriDbYKHzRP5jb6q5//2gAIAQIDAT8hrEFocR0aKp/EWFhrl/UX JimeXt2n/9oACAEDAwE/IVlx+n//2gAMAwEAAhEDEQAAEERv/9oACAEBAwE/EHjizHLyoVqqKOkY ZWyOGEAteackcR0HRwyDyjgi0YyudN2+RP/aAAgBAgMBPxBXX7gdMsAclaqNiD1afdgFpKVYNeB1 7YHQHQbn/9oACAEDAwE/EEtzLVKXMVP/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C4804A.7E0EF060--