X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 17:59:12 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm23-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.224] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5044295 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 22:30:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.224; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.91.61] by nm23.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2011 02:29:44 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.20] by tm1.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2011 02:29:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1020.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2011 02:29:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 896353.50011.bm@omp1020.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 88525 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jul 2011 02:29:43 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=D3W1inlHLBTrssRuef0JTFvIyPAPYt6OyOLozA6vqw7sdDY1N9FmpSzel2O8M9+VMlFttbNqppm6PR3kjVM3bA9f6KeXw9rylaA2ISeUxB54tQB28xQV0j7GrhO0H3EyIAetNep7WikWXHivxS+afHeZ1UP04eUQ4U6+hv6usYo=; X-YMail-OSG: 6jSWQBAVM1nJyqYn8OiOt_MaDYOssBJXzQxGe_nEqLdJZn3 NBloQjDR30y14LS6U0fNV4XcjKTEdKv1euMFYNUt7362p01V26VFL7GYnxLZ F.pd22RGEU3yFovzyDslfEg.5KJxuL18rhQ9bfdqkHYvgovJWAQYnM1hPaPd GLmqrZH4Yg7_5IonyiVDFVVaUbN3hnpTY3P4i19TStOLb5n9EvcaHjG39KrJ Zw7y4g90ojb5s4tCuj._dbfigiA9vxXF9WSfbVq2UhyP8QXWmC6rPhAu9jSP NmBEW8xPCGH99pa2GO_VXheFHg6hM1ZDjbhpLsFSzVjQoU_dB5.ieGuxd4Dp 0J1pIG99bmM7Xplfl0hRHAKh98UARHKhTwuRwTj_o9lYCGnzV3eaW6tlPTBg 2eayaWMQ8l3RvM3h3qB9bGv52izj.3had5hpzZmkMgYgkEnbySGijk.neaFl eGu2aZfT80f70tHQZTZ31PtWemmUeTMCD6I51qKvUILca9gD3NLYDQoP35ka Ag0reQ9Qc0ksef3G6CgQj_Vk8AxYpfj1zmq2pjoMG80Fh4lYywtt5BVVAXJd sdHW.vKqymtSnZPpdN3gUX3rql3O74DTLapY5P.eDoat27GO4JA-- Received: from [76.8.220.21] by web111401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 19:29:43 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/14.0.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 X-Original-Message-ID: <1310005783.82242.YahooMailClassic@web111401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:29:43 -0700 (PDT) From: randy snarr Subject: Re: [LML] Re: n23ph X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-281217341-1310005783=:82242" --0-281217341-1310005783=:82242 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I firmly believe most Lancair drivers (especially myself included previousl= y )badly underestimate how quickly these airplanes loose energy with a dead= engine and a windmilling propeller.I have done many practice landings by p= ulling the power to idle and then working to make the field and dropping th= e gear and flaps late and then landing. This is good practice. It is howeve= r deceiving.=A0 It is dramatically different (worse) with a dead engine and a windmilling p= ropeller. I believe this fact has taken a terrible toll on our community. W= ith a dead engine, you will be making a much more aggressive decent than yo= u ever would in normal operations to keep your energy up as you need to ove= rcome the drag of the engine and propeller. Gear and flaps will make this w= orse. A casual glide at 100-110 knots is fine at altitude. When you get any= where near the ground, you will want more than that. As we all know these p= lanes start to sink when they get a little slow. You can momentarily reduce= the sink rate with the stick but with no power, pulling back to arrest thi= s sink will cause your energy and airspeed to fall off a cliff leaving you = with no good options if you are are anywhere near the ground.=A0 I like the LOBO training that illustrates an over head approach to the land= ing site with lots of altitiude over the initial (2500 or more feet dependi= ng on your airplane) over your desired landing site then make a descending = left turn (adjusting turn and decent rate as necessary) and dropping gear a= nd flaps as appropriate AFTER you have the energy to make the field. They t= each how tough it is to hit a straight in dead stick approach.=A0Better to = circle over an acceptable site and carefully give away your excess altitude= and energy and avoid the fatal mistake of falling below the speed/energy c= urve close to the ground... =A0 FWIW..Randy SnarrN694RS 235/320 "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if n= ot utterly impossible" -Simon Newcomb, 1902 --- On Tue, 7/5/11, Jeff Edwards wrote: From: Jeff Edwards Subject: [LML] Re: n23ph To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 10:55 AM Tried to stretch the glide.=A0 AvSafe=A0Jeff Edwards314.308.6719 mobile636.532.5638 officeJeff.edwards@avs= afe.com On Jul 4, 2011, at 10:54 AM, Colyn Case wrote: Jeff, =A0 are you able to get any info on Peter's accident? =A0 =A0Most of = us at his home base think he ran out of gas but it would be really useful t= o know if the NTSB found any fuel in the tanks. There were obviously many opportunities for him to avoid that situation but= aside from that I have an additional question.If you look at the debris fi= eld, it appears that he pancaked in. =A0e.g. stalled at 50-100'. =A0Have yo= u seen this before in accident investigations? =A0What would make a pilot d= o that? On Jul 3, 2011, at 11:46 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: I think this makes seven thus far this calendar year. All 320/360 and Legac= y's. Jeff Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: From: "Mike Fisher" Date: July 2, 2011 2:43:31 PM CDT To: "Kim Lorentzen" , Subject: NewsOK =0A=0A=0A http://m.newsok.com/pilot-killed-in-oklahoma-city-plane-crash-is-identified= -as-san-antonio-man/article/3582065?custom_click=3Dheadlines_widget =0A =0AMike Fisher =0Amikef@lancair.com =0A541.788.4225=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=0A --0-281217341-1310005783=:82242 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I firmly believe most Lancair drivers (especi= ally myself included previously )badly underestimate how quickly these airp= lanes loose energy with a dead engine and a windmilling propeller.
I ha= ve done many practice landings by pulling the power to idle and then workin= g to make the field and dropping the gear and flaps late and then landing. = This is good practice. It is however deceiving. 

<= div>It is dramatically different (worse) with a dead engine a= nd a windmilling propeller. I believe this fact has taken a terrible toll o= n our community. With a dead engine, you will be making a much more aggress= ive decent than you ever would in normal operations to keep your energy up = as you need to overcome the drag of the engine and propeller. Gear and flap= s will make this worse. A casual glide at 100-110 knots is fine at altitude= . When you get anywhere near the ground, you will want more than that. As we= all know these planes start to sink when they get a little slow. You can m= omentarily reduce the sink rate with the stick but with no power, pulling b= ack to arrest this sink will cause your energy and airspeed to fall off a c= liff leaving you with no good options if you are are anywhere near the grou= nd. 

I like the LOBO training that illustrate= s an over head approach to the landing site with lots of altitiude over the= initial (2500 or more feet depending on your airplane) over your desired l= anding site then make a descending left turn (adjusting turn and decent rat= e as necessary) and dropping gear and flaps as appropriate AFTER you have t= he energy to make the field. They teach how tough it is to hit a straight i= n dead stick approach. 
Better to circle over an acceptable = site and carefully give away your excess altitude and energy and avoid the fatal mistake of falling below the speed/energy curve close to t= he ground...  

FWIW..
Randy Snarr
N6= 94RS 235/320

"Flight by machines = heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossibl= e"
-Simon Newcomb, 1902

--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Jeff Edward= s <vtailjeff@aol.com> wrote:
<= br>From: Jeff Edwards <vtailjeff@aol.com>
Subject: [LML] Re: n23ph=
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 10:55 AM
<= br>
Tried to stretch the glide. 

<= div>AvSafe 
Jeff Edwards
314.308.6719 mobile
636.53= 2.5638 office
Jeff, =   are you able to get any info on Peter's accident?    Most = of us at his home base think he ran out of gas but it would be really usefu= l to know if the NTSB found any fuel in the tanks.

There= were obviously many opportunities for him to avoid that situation but asid= e from that I have an additional question.
If you look at the deb= ris field, it appears that he pancaked in.  e.g. stalled at 50-100'. &= nbsp;Have you seen this before in accident investigations?  What would= make a pilot do that?


<= br class=3D"yiv444686440Apple-interchange-newline">
I think this makes seven thus far this calendar year. All 320/3= 60 and Legacy's.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

=
From: "Mike Fisher" <MikeF@lancair.com&= gt;
Date: July 2, 2011 2:43:31 PM CDT
To: "Kim Lorentze= n" <KimL@l= ancair.com>, <vtailjeff@aol.com>
Su= bject: NewsOK


=3D=0A
--0-281217341-1310005783=:82242--