X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:06:20 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [198.64.152.110] (HELO sdc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5038335 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:01:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=198.64.152.110; envelope-from=ronald@sdc.com Received: from [192.168.1.104] [68.202.59.0] by sdc.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id 0a640002dd0b39fd; Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:51:18 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 X-Original-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:00:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Fin From: RONALD STEVENS X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Fin In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3392272852_8797475" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3392272852_8797475 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes I agree, we the PICS are in command and can decide, and jets are just going IFR, we can call Daytona on the ground or just after takeoff (which usually means a busted airspace, but they are kind of used to this as long as they know there will be a jet taking off and they know the n-number. (not legal, but controllers know) -- Ronald From: Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 07:51:17 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Fin Ron, ATC may ask, but the pilot is flying the plane. Going faster requires a larger turn radius. Close in patterns and tight turns are for Cubs, 172s, etc. - not Lancairs. When LOBO says "knowledge of Lancairs is crucial to flight safety," that includes ATC. With respect to your airport altitude limitations, how do the jets handle it? Grayhawk In a message dated 6/29/2011 2:50:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Ronald@sdc.com writes: > Hi John > > This is a nice idea about the 1500ft and the rounded arc approach, however > the Tower will not always agree with you, so I imagine you will have to > call 'unable' a lot. (Tight Pattern, Squared Pattern are calls that I have > heard many times from the tower), is it not then wiser just to go a bit > faster? > > And just for fun.....1500ft pattern would not be possible where I live, > our airport (7FL6) is right under Daytona Beach (KDAB) where our ceiling > is at 1200ft. > > -- Ronald > > On 6/29/11 1:14 PM, "John Hafen" wrote: > >> >Giff: >> > >> >Good moves all. >> > >> >Additionally, I think in the early days, guys didn't consciously realize >> >how much AOA increases with bank angle. Flying square corners in a >> >pattern, especially in the base to final turn, can stall the plane way >> >too close to the ground to do anything about it. >> > >> >That is why HPAT recommends flying a 1500 foot pattern, and a roundish >> >arc from down wind to final, rather than square corners from down wind to >> >base, then base to final. >> > >> >John Hafen >> > >> > >> >On Jun 29, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Giffen Marr wrote: >> > >> >Before I started to build my IV-P, I reviewed the accident history of the >> >IV.What I found was a significant number of stall spin accidents in the >> >IV. Why a higher rate then other aircraft? From my analysis, I felt there >> >were two reasons, one,the aircraft tended to have an aft CG, and two, the >> >tail became blanketed in the spin, causing difficulty in recovery. My >> >un-flown solution was to move as much weight forward as I could, add >> >stall strips, add the ventral fin and add about 48 square inches of area >> >to the rudder trailing edge. You must also remember that when you retract >> >the gear, the cg moves aft about 2 inches. With an aft CG, the aircraft >> >will tend to go flat in the spin, which makes recovery difficult. >> > >> >Giff Marr >> >N229GM >> >1st engine run before AirVenture. >> >-- >> >For archives and unsub >> >http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html >> > >> > >> >-- >> >For archives and unsub >> >http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html > > > > > -- > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --B_3392272852_8797475 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Yes I agree, we the PICS are= in command and can decide, and jets are just going IFR, we can call Daytona= on the ground or just after takeoff (which usually means a busted airspace,= but they are kind of used to this as long as they know there will be a jet = taking off and they know the n-number. (not legal, but controllers know)

-- Ronald

From: <Sky2high@aol.com= >
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing Lis= t <lml@lancaironline.net>Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 07:51:17 -04= 00
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Fin

Ron,
 
ATC may ask, but the pilot is flying the plane.  Going faster require= s a larger turn radius.  Close in patterns and tight turns are for Cubs,= 172s, etc. - not Lancairs.  When LOBO says "knowledge of Lancairs is crucial to flight safety," that includes ATC.
 
Wi= th respect to your airport altitude limitations, how do the jets handle it?
 
Grayhawk
 
In = a message dated 6/29/2011 2:50:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Ronald@sdc.com writes:
Hi John

This is a nice idea about the 1500ft and the rounded arc appr= oach, however
the Tower will not always agree with you, so I imagine you wil= l have to
call 'unable' a lot. (Tight Pattern, Squared Pattern are calls= that I have
heard many times from the tower), is it not then wiser just to = go a bit
faster?

And just for fun.....1500ft pattern would not be possible where I live,
our airport (7FL6) is right under Daytona Beach= (KDAB) where our ceiling
is at 1200ft.

-- Ronald

On 6/29= /11 1:14 PM, "John Hafen" <j.hafen@co= mcast.net> wrote:

>Giff:
>
>Good moves all.
>
>Additionally, I think in the early days, guys didn't = consciously realize
>how much AOA increases with bank angle.  = Flying square corners in a
>pattern, especially in the base to fina= l turn, can stall the plane way
>too close to the ground to do anythi= ng about it.
>
>That is why HPAT recommends flying a 1500 foot pattern, and a roundish
>arc from down wind to final, rather than s= quare corners from down wind to
>base, then base to final.
>
>= ;John Hafen
>
>
>On Jun 29, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Giffen Marr wrote:
>
>Before I started to build my IV-P, I reviewed the accident history of the
>IV.What I found was a significant number o= f stall spin accidents in the
>IV. Why a higher rate then other aircr= aft? From my analysis, I felt there
>were two reasons, one,the aircraft = tended to have an aft CG, and two, the
>tail became blanketed in th= e spin, causing difficulty in recovery. My
>un-flown solution was to = move as much weight forward as I could, add
>stall strips, add the ventr= al fin and add about 48 square inches of area
>to the rudder trailing = edge. You must also remember that when you retract
>the gear, the cg move= s aft about 2 inches. With an aft CG, the aircraft
>will tend to go flat = in the spin, which makes recovery difficult.
>
>Giff Marr
>N229GM
>1st engine run before AirVenture.
>--
>For archives and unsub
>http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
>
><= br>>--
>For archives and unsub
>http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



<= br>--
For archives and unsub http://mai= l.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
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