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Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 20:14:38 -0400
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From: H & J Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs,
 Vortex Generators for L...
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=3CBODY=3E=3CP=3EBob=2C I would agree completely=2E A great and civil=26=
nbsp=3Bdiscussion w/ many views and opinions=2E No boasting is assumed=2C=
 only the benifit of one who has experianced something that many other =5B=
myself included=5D could only dream of=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E
I=27d noted that you felt more comfortable in the jets and from there =5B=
knowing the Stall issues w/ the F16=5D was just looking at the compariso=
n of stall behaviour=2E As I understand it if you stall the F16 to a poi=
nt =5Bw/ it=27s Aft CG=5D it becomes fairly difficult to recover=2E I=27=
ve read accounts of such =27departures=27 happening and the hair raising=
 exeriance of trying to recover=2E=26nbsp=3BThe assumption is that=26nbs=
p=3Bsome of these accounts would be=26nbsp=3Bw/=26nbsp=3Bsome poetic lic=
ense=2C but the underlying premise is that they CAN be a bear if stalled=
 incorrectly=2E=26nbsp=3B These airframes are certainly a long ways from=
 the Lancair family=2E I fly an aircraft corporatly that has =5Bbasicall=
y=5D the same performance spec=27s =5Bspeed=5D as a =27factory=27 IV =5B=
285knt =40 240=5D however I can carry a few more people than a IV=2C on =
the lower end of the spectrum it stalls down in the 85knt range dependin=
g on weights etc=2E So one can have their cake and eat it if one really =
wants to=2E =5Bie=3B not every plane that =27performs=27 in cruis
e=26nbsp=3Bhas to be a dangerous slow speed flyer=3B or said another way=
=2C not every plane that is safe/docile in the slow speed range has to b=
e a dog in the high speed range=5D=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E
The subject line above =5Bnot sure where it came from=5D is a bit of a m=
is-nomer in that I don=27t think there is any FIXING that needs to be do=
ne w/ the IV=2E I was talking w/ John H=2E offline about this=2C I think=
 there is some that think I=27m pushing for a change in the wings or tai=
l or whatever to make the airframe safer=2E=26nbsp=3B Maybe others are p=
ushing this point=2C it certainly isn=27t my basis=2E I think there is s=
ome TUNING that could be done to improve the slow flight =5Bapproach to =
stall only=5D areas of the envelope=2E Primarily I=27m looking at=26nbsp=
=3Bapproach to stall=26nbsp=3Bbuffet and wing drop=2E Both of these shou=
ld be able to be tuned w/ the simple use of stall strips or in the worst=
 case =5Breally worst case=2C which=26nbsp=3BI think would be rare=5D th=
e resetting of the wing incidence due to builder error etc=2E=26nbsp=3B =
At best=2C the addition of a simple stall strip or control surface riggi=
ng should give the onset buffet as well as elliminate wing drop in the a=
pproach to stall and initial recovery areas=2E
 Both of these steps should be relatively easy to impliment =5Bcost and =
time wise=5D=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EYou=27d noted that you slowed to onset =5BI assume this to mean p=
re-stall buffet=5D during your pre-buy and then recovered=2E=26nbsp=3B T=
HIS is all I=27m promoting as a point of reference in flight testing=2E =
There are many =5Bif I=27m reading these emails correctly=5D who have NE=
VER done that very step in flight testing their airframes=2E In no way a=
m I advocating using any Lancair for aerobatics or advanced training =5B=
stall/spin=5D of any sort=2E Nor would it need to be something that=26nb=
sp=3Bone should be doing on a=26nbsp=3Bdaily or even weekly basis=2C eve=
ry 6mo or a year maybe=2C but only as a=26nbsp=3Bstep in recurrency trai=
ning=2E =26nbsp=3BI agree that these planes are built for =27going place=
s=27 and are well suited in that area of the envelope=2E I just wish mor=
e would do the =27approach to stall=27 tests during their flight tests=2C=
 rather than =22=3CEM=3Eslow down to a number that looks slow and then s=
peed up=3C/EM=3E
=22=2E=26nbsp=3B The problem w/ doing the approach to stall is that in s=
ome planes =5Bas I understand it=5D there is no warning to the stall=2C =
it just happens and more often than not=2C it includes a wing drop=2E He=
nce my=26nbsp=3Bpondering=26nbsp=3Bof a =27group shared=27 spin chute fo=
r testing=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E
I think there is a bit of a incorrect belief that all of these kit plane=
s are geometrically the same and will perform the same because they came=
 from the same molds=2E From my experiance and what I=27ve read here=2C =
this is far from the truth=2E Each airframe is an individual=2C they eac=
h have their own querks and issues=2E Having to re-tune them aerodynamic=
ally is something that should be expected as a nesc step in flight testi=
ng=2E From what I=27ve been reading there is a large number of owners wh=
o do-not-do this step but rather leave anything that would be =27aerodyn=
amics=27 to the assumption that =27it will be right=27 =5Bor =27alright=27=
=5D=2C I believe this to be a larger part of this =27don=27t investigate=
 the low speed range=27 mindset=2E I believe it is our responsibility to=
 work w/ the aerodynamics and tune the airframe=2C to avoid this step =5B=
dealing w/ the aerodynamics=5D because it is not our expertise is the sa=
me as =27not building an airplane because it should be done by perfessio=
nals=27=2C we know we can build t
hese airplanes=2C we can also tune them to behave=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EI can=27t speak for 737 pilots but I can tell you in my corporate=
 plane that I=26nbsp=3Bdrive=2C I have=26nbsp=3B=5Band am required to re=
gularly=5D demonstrate approach to stall=26nbsp=3Bin the actual=26nbsp=3B=
airplane while doing recurrency training=2E In the certified airframe it=
s not a big deal=2C you slow down look for and find the needed indicator=
s and recover=2E This isn=27t happening in the larger community of Lanca=
ir drivers which is the root of my concern=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EAnyway=2C thanks for the great response=2C it=27s wonderful when =
these discussions can be as light and easy as this has=2E There will be =
never be a=26nbsp=3Bfinal conclusion to the question=2C at least not unt=
il the last Lancair stops flying and that could be a while=2E Until then=
=2C it will keep coming back to be discussed and then left for=26nbsp=3B=
time=2E=26nbsp=3B =3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EAt the end of it all=2C fly safe and come home alive=2E =3CU=3E=3C=
EM=3EIt=27s all that matters=3C/EM=3E=3C/U=3E=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EBest Regards=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3CBR=3EJarrett Johnson=26nbsp=3B =3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E235/320 55=25 and holding=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E=26gt=3B Jarrett =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B I think this is a good =
discussion=2C and I=27m not trying to boast =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B about my fo=
rtunate flying career or be pretentious in any way=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B Just being direct=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B First of all=2C let=27s define the difference between a stall a=
nd =22out =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of control=22=2E=26nbsp=3B The F-16 flight co=
ntrol computer was designed to not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B allow an AOA (in pos=
itive pitch) of above 25 degrees no matter =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B what the pil=
ot asks for with the stick=2E=26nbsp=3B At that AOA limit=2C the =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B wing is not flying anymore=2C but the plane handles just fine (=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B usually in a big sink rate unless you are low with the=
 AB cookin)=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B We used this AOA to slow down and get no=
se authority for =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B fighting=2E=26nbsp=3B Out of control i=
s a different animal all together=2E=26nbsp=3B If =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B you o=
vershoot the roll/pitch/yaw limiters and truly are not in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 control of the nose=2C it=27s an emergency procedure=2E=26nbsp=3B You r=
eally have =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B to try hard to make this happen=2C but it does happen every so =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B often=2E=26nbsp=3B So it is a misconception to say that=
 the F-16 has =22super =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B poor=22 stall recovery ability=2E=
=26nbsp=3B In fact=2C a select few of us each =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B year get =
to go to Edwards and intentionally put an F16 out of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B co=
ntrol repeatedly=2C and practice recovering from it=2E=26nbsp=3B As long=
 as =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B you have some altitude and the CG of the airplane i=
s not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B intentionally mishandled=2C you can recover every=
 time with the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B proper technique=2E=26nbsp=3B Bottom lin=
e=2C=26nbsp=3B It=27s a very poor comparison to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the 4P=2E=
=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Additionally=2C I didn=27t =
say I was more comfortable in a fighter=2C I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B said the 4=
P is harder to land=2C which it is=2E=26nbsp=3B The F16 is still at =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B flying speed when you land=2C so its easy to handle near th=
e runway =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B ( long story offline about F16 landing techniq=
ue)=2E=26nbsp=3B The HUGE wing =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B on the F22 makes landing a piece of cake=2E=26nbsp=3B My very f=
irst landing =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B in the F22 was better than my very best la=
nding in the 4P=2C because =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B there is so much more design=
 differences (leading edge flaps=2C HUD=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B digital flig=
ht control computer=2C 70=2C000 pounds of thrust if you =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 need it=2C etc) that aide landing=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B I will say it again=2C the 4p doesn=27t need fixed (the strake =
for a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B turbine 4P excluded I guess)=2E=26nbsp=3B In my o=
pinion=2C what needs fixed are =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B some pilots attitude tow=
ard the airplane=2E=26nbsp=3B Maybe the fact that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B this =
is an experimental aircraft gives some people the idea that =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B they can mess with it=2E=26nbsp=3B I think there is a big differenc=
e on =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B whether you have sunshades in the cockpit or chang=
e the baggage =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B door locking mechanism vs=2E fooling with=
 the aero design=2E=26nbsp=3B There =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B had to be a thousan=
d tradeoffs in the design process for this =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B airplane=2E=26nbsp=3B I for one think Lance made the right choi=
ces for a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B plane that has very unique performance charac=
teristics=2E=26nbsp=3B Takeoff=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Go fast=2C cruise in =
a straight line a far distance=2C land=2C Period=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B Faster and more efficient than anything else like it in the world=2E=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B It wasn=27t designed to fly slow=2C do acro=2C stalls/=
spins=2C or =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B anything of the kind=2E=26nbsp=3B If you =22=
fixed=22 all of the perceived =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B problems with the 4P=2C y=
ou would end up with a Cessna or Bonanza=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Y=
ou can=27t have it both ways=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Don=27t think that o=
ther airplanes =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B ability to do these things safely is a r=
eason that you should try =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B it in a 4P=2E=26nbsp=3B If yo=
u can=27t stay ahead of the airplane in all =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B circumstanc=
es enough to avoid a stall=2C or if you must go practice =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 a stall for your own reasons=2C then don=27t get a 4P=2E=26nbsp=3B Get =
a Cirrus =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B so you can ride a parachute if you mess up=2E=26=
nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B Does a 737 or 747 need fixed because it can=27t stall and recov=
er =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B easily=3F=26nbsp=3B No=2C and airline pilots don=27t=
 go there either=2C except in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the simulator=2E=26nbsp=3B=
 It was designed for cruise efficiency=2E=26nbsp=3B Same story =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B with the 4P=2Cand we don=27t have a simulator to practice in eithe=
r! =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B I=27m comfortable with my family in=
 the airplane because I know the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B limits of the airplane=
=2E=26nbsp=3B I know it won=27t act good in a stall so =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
I=27m not going there=2E=26nbsp=3B I=27m not saying you should not learn=
 those =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B skills in another airplane that was designed for=
 it=2C but I am =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B saying that outside of the testing/cert=
ification process on this =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B airplane it is a bad idea=2C =
no matter what your skill level is=2E=26nbsp=3B I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B accep=
t the fact that my desire for high speed efficient cruising =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B necessitates a high landing speed and poor high AOA performance=2E=26=
nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B When I was checked out in my aircraft=2C we slowed down to the =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B onset for a demonstration of the aircraft performance=2C=
 with plenty =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of altitude below us=2E=26nbsp=3B Now I kn=
ow where the limit is=2C and to never =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B go there=2E=26nbs=
p=3B 4P pilots should not either=2C in my opinion=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On Jun 27=2C 2011=2C at 11=3A16 =
AM=2C H =26amp=3B J Johnson =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26lt=3Bhjjohnson=40sasktel=
=2Enet=26gt=3B wrote=3A =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B I swo=
re I was just going to sit on my hands but=2E=2E=2E=2E=26nbsp=3B darn-it=
 I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B can=27t=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Bob your saying your more comfortable in a fighter =
=5Bwhich has =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B known for its SUPER POOR stall recovery ab=
ility=5D in slow flight =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B than you are in the IV=3F=26nbs=
p=3B I can=27t comment on the F22 as I never =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B learned mu=
ch about what it can or can=27t do in the stall=2E I can =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 imagine w/ the vectored thrust that it=27s never going to be an =3CBR=3E=

=26gt=3B issue unless your dead stick =5Bat which time the plane would h=
ave =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B to fend for itself while you pulled the =27handle=27=
=2C I=27m sure=5D=26nbsp=3B but =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the F16 has been known =
=5Bsince it was built=5D that it has NEARLY =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B unrecoverbl=
e in a stall=2E If you hit 10000=27 and your not recovered=2C =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B just pull the handle=2E=26nbsp=3B I=27ve read accounts of test pil=
ots who =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B stalled them and it took 15000+ft to recover an=
d then just barely =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B before the hard-deck=2E As I underst=
and it=2C to recover you need to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B use stick movement in =
the direction of the oscillations =5Brocking =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the plane =
in pitch to get it to =27unstall=27 at the apex of one of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 the down pitch oscillations=5D=2E=26nbsp=3B So it=27s established=2C th=
e F16 is not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B one to be stalled=2C infact I think there =
is a =27down pitch=27 command =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =5Bbuilt into the control=
 software for the flight controls=5D that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B comes into pl=
ay if the plane gets too slow=2E The only way to =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B actually stall the airframe is to override that =27down pitch c=
ommand=27=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B So your=
 ok flying in slow flight w/ that type of plane but not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 in a IV=2C doesn=27t that speak to the need for more testing of the =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B airframe to =27get comfortable=27=3F=26nbsp=3B I have no d=
oubts in your skills=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B zero=2E You are as good a quali=
fied pilot as we=27re going to find for =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =27hands on=
=2C non-straight/level=27 stuff yet you don=27t want to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 explore the lower end of the envelope on the plane you carry =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B family members in=2E Granted the IV doesn=27t have a =27seat=27 bu=
t it =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B could have a spin chute!=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B I und=
erstand that the F16=27s and 22=27s =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B have had extensive =
test flying and their pilots extensive training =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B and thi=
s is why their pilots are ok w/ slow flight=2C this is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
exactly what the IV needs =5Band the 300 series also=5D to =27tame=27 th=
em=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Also it was mentioned about the F86 demonstration=2E=2E=
=2E=2E=26nbsp=3B All I can =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B say is =27exactly=27=2C he s=
tayed inside the envelope=2C he also knew =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B where the env=
elope was=2C what the limitations w/ the airframe were =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
and where he could push it and where he couldn=27t=2E=26nbsp=3B He was a=
lso =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B flying an airframe that was well tested and it=27s =
deficency=27s =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B known=2E He obviously was also a very ski=
lled pilot=2E=26nbsp=3B Would a person =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B DARE try this in=
 a Lancair=3F=26nbsp=3B I=27d hope not=2E That said=2C if you knew =3CBR=
=3E=26gt=3B the airframe inside and out and it=27s limitations and how i=
t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B behaved =5Bwas tamed=3F=3F=5D in extreeme edges of th=
e envelope then maybe =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B a person skilled enough could do =
something similar =5Bno that=27s not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B an endorsement on =
my part to try it in any form=5D=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Bob Hoover showed a similar type of flying w/ his Shrike =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Commander back in the day in a plane that was never int=
ended to be =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B flown thus=2E=26nbsp=3B The bottom line of all this =5Bas I see=
 it=5D is the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =27amazing=27 flying that has been discus=
sed always occurs in an =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B airframe that is well tested an=
d adjusted=2C by skilled pilots who =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B are well trained=2E=
 If we were to apply those same criteria to the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B IV and =
300=27s =5Bok lets just say =27Lancairs=27=5D then there could/would =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B be the same level of confidence in those airframes also=2E=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Ok onto another end=
less topic=2E=2E=2E=26nbsp=3B FORD or Chevy=3F=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =5Ba =
topic as =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B likely to be solved as this =27To Stall or Not=
 to Stall=27 topic=26nbsp=3B =3A) =5D =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =5Bor how about M=
AC or PC=3F=5D =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Jarre=
tt Johnson=26nbsp=3B =5Bok back to sitting on my hand again=2E=2E=5D =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B 235/320 55=25 and holding =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Pile on to=
 the fighter comment=3A=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I flew F16s for 18 years and no=
w fly the F-22=2E=26nbsp=3B Both of those =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B planes are easier to land than my IV-P=2E=26n=
bsp=3B I have flown a lot of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B slow spe=
ed stuff in those planes=2C and I don=27t Intend to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B exp=
lore =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B the stall characteristics of my =
plane=2C ever=2E=26nbsp=3B If you are =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B learning =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B to fly=2C then yes=2C do so in a plane than c=
an stall and was =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B designed =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B for it=2E=26nbsp=3B Do all of that=2C get 1000 hours=2C and THEN g=
et a IV-P=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B qua=
lity training on how to fly it=2E=26nbsp=3B Personally I get weary of =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B repeated =22 You ne=
ed to see how it stalls if it ever happens=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B attitude=2E=26nbsp=3B If you stay ahead of the airplane and don=
=27t take it =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B where it doesn=27t need =
to be=2C you will never be there=2E=26nbsp=3B It=27s =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B ne=
ver =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B going to happen in this plane unl=
ess it=27s unintentional=2C and =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B unless you are 10=2C000=27 up you are going t=
o hit the ground and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B it =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B isn=27t going to be pretty- period!=26nbsp=3B The IV-P was designed =
to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B fly =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B fast and effi=
cient over long distance=2E=26nbsp=3B Not to do acrobatics=2C =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B stalls=2C anything else=2E=26nbsp=3B It doesn=27=
t need to be fixed=2C it does =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B exactly=
 what it was intended=26nbsp=3B to do!=26nbsp=3B And pilots who wanna fi=
x =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B IV-P or stall =
it should fly something else ( in my opinion)=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Bob R =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B On Jun 24=2C 20=
11=2C at 10=3A02 PM=2C John Hafen =26lt=3Bj=2Ehafen=40comcast=2Enet=26gt=
=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B wrote=3A =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B One has to choose between stall stri=
ps and a heated leading =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B edge=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B For me pe=
rsonally=2C stall strips would be more applicable for =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B my =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Cub=2C which doesn=27t ne=
ed them at all=2E=26nbsp=3B And I have been in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B inadvertent icing conditions in the IVP and watched the ice =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B curl =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B up like potato chi=
ps and blow away=2E=26nbsp=3B I=27ll keep the heated =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B le=
ading =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B edge=2C thank you=2C rather tha=
n a stall strip that I would never =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B use=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 And as far as a larger tail=3F=3F=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B A=2E=26nbsp=3B Who is going to spend the a=
dditional money to make =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B their =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B IVP look stupid=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B B=2E=26nbsp=3B The IVP is tail heavy already -- no =
one wants to load =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B extra weight aft of=
 the CG=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=
 C=2E=26nbsp=3B Challenged pilots should perhaps fly a different =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B plane=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I love the IVP the way it is=2E=26nbsp=3B=
 I have never crashed and =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B died=2E=26nbsp=3B I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B understa=
nd the envelope=2C and like it=3B) =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B John =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B (=
On military pilots and =22training=22 to fly unstable air craft =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B -- =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I don=27t think you are a=
ccurate on this one=2E=26nbsp=3B The F-16 is so =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B unstable that it requires 20+ inputs per second to maintain =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B straight and level flight=2E=26nbsp=3B I=
t is computerized=2E=26nbsp=3B No human =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B being on =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B earth=2C no matter how highly trained=2C can =
manually fly an F-16 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B straight and lev=
el=2E=26nbsp=3B The =22fly by wire=22 F-16 is way easier to =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B fly =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B than my IVP=2E=26nbsp=3B The=
 original side stick didn=27t move at all=2C but =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B responded to pressure=2E=26nbsp=3B Pilots hated it so it was r=
edesigned =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B move sl=
ightly=2E=26nbsp=3B And the pilots wishes to go a computer that =3CBR=3E=

=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B controls the flight surfaces=2E=26nbsp=3B The=
re is no direct manual =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B connection fro=
m the stick to the flight control surfaces=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 Even in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B the old F4=2C the flight con=
trol =22feel=22 was artificial -- based =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B on =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B springs=2C as the hydraulic system supplied 3=2C0=
00 psi to the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B flight =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 control surfaces=2C which came in really handy over about mach =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B 1=2E1=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B You don=27=
t need a million dollars worth of training to fly a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B IVP=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B safely=2E=26nbsp=3B HPAT=2C yes=2E) =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B On Jun 24=2C 2011=2C at 11=3A24 AM=2C Wolfgang wrote=3A =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility=2E =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Military pilots get over a mill=
ion dollars worth of training =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B each to=
 be able to handle their =22unstable=22 aircraft=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I don=27t see that happening for IVP=
 drivers=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B There are a couple of things that ca=
n be done that don=27t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B adversely affe=
ct performance or handling=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 Stall strips and larger tail feathers come to mind=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B Wolfgang =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B From=3A John Hafen =26lt=3Bj=
=2Ehafen=40comcast=2Enet=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B Sender=3A =26lt=3Bmarv=40lancaironline=2Enet=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Subject=3A Airplane needs to be =22fixed=2C=22=
 Stall Speeds=2C Wing =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Cuffs=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B Vortex Generators for L=2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Date=3A Fri=2C 24 Jun 2011 06=3A05=3A59 -0400 =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B To=3A lml=40lancaironline=2Enet =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Wolfgang states=3A=26nbsp=3B =22If t=
he airframe can=27t get back in the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B e=
nvelope=2C then the airframe needs to be fixed=2E=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B There are lots of historical example=
s to the contrary=2C like =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B F4 Phantom=2E=26nbsp=3B Once in a flat spin=2C the plane was u=
nrecoverable =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B from =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B an=
y altitude=2E=26nbsp=3B =22Stick Forward=2C Ailerons and Rudder Neutral=2C=
 If =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Recovered=2C=
 Maintain Full Forward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B w=
ere =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B not enough=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the Navy=2C Air =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B Force=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Marines=2C and hosts o=
f allies for decades=2E=26nbsp=3B And it was fast=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B ov=
er =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Mach II=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Yet=2C yo=
u stayed far far away from =22departing=22 -- high angle =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B attack=2C stick one way and the r=
udder the other=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Most advanced stalls in IVP=
 are recoverable=2C given 10=2C000 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B feet =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B or so=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B But unlike the F4=2C m=
ost of our IVPs are not equipped with =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Martin- =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Baker ejection seats=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B The F4 ne=
ver got fixed=2E=26nbsp=3B The IVP got =22fixed=2E=22=26nbsp=3B It=27s c=
alled =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =22ES=2C=22=
 with larger differently shaped wings and fixed gear=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B became the Columbia/Cessna=2E =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B The =22fix=22 was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made it a=
 less =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B desirable plane -- slower=2C fi=
xed gear=2C non-pressurized=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I=27ll happily keep the un-=
fixed version of the IVP myself=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B thank =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B you=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B John Hafen =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B On Jun 23=2C 2011=2C at 9=3A11 AM=2C=
 Wolfgang wrote=3A =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I=2C for one=2C want to be able to reco=
ver from an =22adverse=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B condition s=
hould I ever find myself in one=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B Knowing where the edges of the envelope are and how to get =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B beck =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B in the envelope should =
be required=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B If the airfra=
me can=27t get back in the envelope=2C then the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B airframe needs to be fixed=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Wolfgang=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B ----- Original Message ----=
- =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B From=3A Karen Farnsworth =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B To=3A lml=40lancaironline=2Enet=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Sent=3A Wednesday=2C June 2=
2=2C 2011 2=3A12 PM =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Subject=3A=
 RE=3A =5BLML=5D Re=3A Stall Speeds=2C Wing Cuffs=2C Vortex =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Generators for L=2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B David=2C =
=3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I have no problem with=
 anyone who wants to explore the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =93e=
nvelope=94 of his/her airplane=2E However=2C I take great =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 exception to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B you grounding me becaus=
e I might choose to not get as near to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B edge as you=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Lynn Farnsworth =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Super Legacy =2323=
5 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B TSIO-550 Powered =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Reno Race =2344 =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B Mmo =2E6 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 I agree 100=25 also=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B If you don=92t know what the inc=
ipient stall feels like in the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B stick =
and the airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B 320=92s=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B (Not knowing this =
is the single biggest killer of Lancair =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B pilots=2E) =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B David T=2E =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B Legacy =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B -- =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B For archives and unsub =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B http=3A//mail=2E=
lancaironline=2Enet=3A81/lists/lml/List=2Ehtml=3C/BODY=3E