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Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 12:16:11 -0400
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From: H & J Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs,
 Vortex Generators for L...
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=3CBODY=3E=3CP=3EI swore I was just going to sit on my hands but=2E=2E=2E=
=2E=26nbsp=3B darn-it I can=27t=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EBob your saying your more comfortable in a fighter =5Bwhich has k=
nown for its =3CSTRONG=3E=3CEM=3ESUPER=26nbsp=3BPOOR=3C/EM=3E=3C/STRONG=3E=
 stall recovery ability=5D in slow flight than you are in the IV=3F=26nb=
sp=3B I can=27t comment on the F22 as I never=26nbsp=3Blearned much abou=
t what it can or can=27t do in the stall=2E I can imagine w/ the vectore=
d thrust that it=27s never going to be an issue unless your dead stick =5B=
at which time the plane would have to fend for itself while you pulled t=
he =27handle=27=2C I=27m sure=5D=26nbsp=3B but the F16 has been known =5B=
since it was built=5D that it has =3CEM=3ENEARLY=3C/EM=3E
 unrecoverble in a stall=2E If you hit 10000=27 and your not recovered=2C=
 just pull the handle=2E=26nbsp=3B I=27ve read accounts of test pilots w=
ho stalled them and it took 15000+ft to recover and then just barely bef=
ore the hard-deck=2E As I understand it=2C to recover you need to use st=
ick movement in the direction of the oscillations =5Brocking the plane i=
n pitch to get it to =27unstall=27 at the apex of one of the down pitch =
oscillations=5D=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3BSo it=27s established=2C the F16 i=
s not one to be stalled=2C infact I think there is a =27down pitch=27 co=
mmand =5Bbuilt into the control software for the flight controls=5D that=
 comes into play if the plane gets too slow=2E The only way to actually =
stall the airframe is to override that =27down pitch command=27=2E=3C/P=3E=

=3CP=3ESo your ok flying in=26nbsp=3Bslow flight w/ that type of plane b=
ut not in a IV=2C doesn=27t that speak to the need for more testing of t=
he airframe to =27get comfortable=27=3F=26nbsp=3B I have no doubts in yo=
ur skills=2C zero=2E You=26nbsp=3Bare as good a qualified pilot as we=27=
re going to find for the =27hands on=2C non-straight/level=27 stuff yet =
you don=27t want to explore the lower end of the envelope on the plane y=
ou carry family members in=2E Granted the IV doesn=27t have a =27seat=27=
 but it could have a spin chute!=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B I understand that t=
he F16=27s and 22=27s have had extensive test flying and their pilots ex=
tensive training and this is why their pilots are ok w/ slow flight=2C t=
his is exactly what the IV needs =5Band the 300 series also=5D to =27tam=
e=27 them=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EAlso it was mentioned about the F86 demonstration=2E=2E=2E=2E=26n=
bsp=3B All I can say is =27exactly=27=2C he stayed inside the envelope=2C=
 he also knew where the envelope was=2C what the limitations w/ the airf=
rame were and where he could push it and where he couldn=27t=2E=26nbsp=3B=
 He was also=26nbsp=3Bflying an airframe that was well tested and it=27s=
 deficency=27s known=2E He obviously was also a very skilled pilot=2E=26=
nbsp=3B Would a person DARE try this in a Lancair=3F=26nbsp=3B I=27d hop=
e not=2E That said=2C=26nbsp=3Bif you knew the airframe inside and out a=
nd it=27s limitations and how it behaved =5Bwas tamed=3F=3F=5D=26nbsp=3B=
in extreeme edges of the envelope then maybe a person skilled enough cou=
ld do something similar =5Bno that=27s not an endorsement on my part to =
try it in any form=5D=2E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EBob Hoover showed a=26nbsp=3Bsimilar type of flying w/ his Shrike=
 Commander back in the day in a plane that was never intended to be flow=
n thus=2E=26nbsp=3B The bottom line of all this =5Bas I see it=5D is the=
 =27amazing=27 flying that has been discussed always occurs in an airfra=
me that is well tested and adjusted=2C by skilled pilots who are well tr=
ained=2E If we were to apply those same criteria to the IV and 300=27s =5B=
ok lets just say =27Lancairs=27=5D then there could/would be the same le=
vel of confidence in those airframes also=2E =3C/P=3E
=3CP=3EOk onto another endless topic=2E=2E=2E=26nbsp=3B FORD or Chevy=3F=
=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =5Ba topic as likely to be solved as this =27To Sta=
ll or Not to Stall=27=26nbsp=3Btopic =26nbsp=3B=3A) =5D=26nbsp=3B =5Bor =
how about MAC or PC=3F=5D=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3EJarrett Johnson=26nbsp=3B =5Bok=
 back to sitting on my hand again=2E=2E=5D=3CBR=3E235/320 55=25 and hold=
ing=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E
=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E=26gt=3B Pile on to the fighter comment=3A=26nbsp=3B=26nb=
sp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B I flew F16s for 18 years and now=
 fly the F-22=2E=26nbsp=3B Both of those =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B planes are eas=
ier to land than my IV-P=2E=26nbsp=3B I have flown a lot of =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B slow speed stuff in those planes=2C and I don=27t Intend to explore=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the stall characteristics of my plane=2C ever=2E=26nbs=
p=3B If you are learning =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B to fly=2C then yes=2C do so in=
 a plane than can stall and was designed =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B for it=2E=26nb=
sp=3B Do all of that=2C get 1000 hours=2C and THEN get a IV-P=2C and =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B quality training on how to fly it=2E=26nbsp=3B Personally =
I get weary of the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B repeated =22 You need to see how it =
stalls if it ever happens=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B attitude=2E=26nbsp=3B If y=
ou stay ahead of the airplane and don=27t take it =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B where=
 it doesn=27t need to be=2C you will never be there=2E=26nbsp=3B It=27s =
never =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B going to happen in this plane unless it=27s unint=
entional=2C and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B unless you are 10=2C000=27 up you are g=
oing to hit the ground and it =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B isn=27t going to be pretty- period!=26nbsp=3B The IV-P was desi=
gned to fly =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B fast and efficient over long distance=2E=26=
nbsp=3B Not to do acrobatics=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B stalls=2C anything else=
=2E=26nbsp=3B It doesn=27t need to be fixed=2C it does =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
exactly what it was intended=26nbsp=3B to do!=26nbsp=3B And pilots who w=
anna fix the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B IV-P or stall it should fly something else=
 ( in my opinion)=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Bob R =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On Jun =
24=2C 2011=2C at 10=3A02 PM=2C John Hafen =26lt=3Bj=2Ehafen=40comcast=2E=
net=26gt=3B wrote=3A =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B One has =
to choose between stall strips and a heated leading edge=2E =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B For me personally=2C stall strip=
s would be more applicable for my =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Cub=2C which doesn=27=
t need them at all=2E=26nbsp=3B And I have been in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B inad=
vertent icing conditions in the IVP and watched the ice curl =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B up like potato chips and blow away=2E=26nbsp=3B I=27ll keep the he=
ated leading =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B edge=2C thank you=2C rather than a stall strip that I would nev=
er use=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B And as far=
 as a larger tail=3F=3F=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=
 A=2E=26nbsp=3B Who is going to spend the additional money to make their=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B IVP look stupid=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=
=26nbsp=3B B=2E=26nbsp=3B The IVP is tail heavy already -- no one wants =
to load =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B extra weight aft of the CG=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B C=2E=26nbsp=3B Challenged pilots should per=
haps fly a different plane=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B I love the IVP the way it is=2E=26nbsp=3B I have never crashed=
 and died=2E=26nbsp=3B I =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B understand the envelope=2C and=
 like it=3B) =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B John =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B (On military pilots and=
 =22training=22 to fly unstable air craft -- =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B I don=27t =
think you are accurate on this one=2E=26nbsp=3B The F-16 is so =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B unstable that it requires 20+ inputs per second to maintain =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B straight and level flight=2E=26nbsp=3B It is computerized=2E=26=
nbsp=3B No human being on =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B earth=2C no matter how highly trained=2C can manually fly an F-=
16 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B straight and level=2E=26nbsp=3B The =22fly by wire=22=
 F-16 is way easier to fly =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B than my IVP=2E=26nbsp=3B The=
 original side stick didn=27t move at all=2C but =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B respon=
ded to pressure=2E=26nbsp=3B Pilots hated it so it was redesigned to =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B move slightly=2E=26nbsp=3B And the pilots wishes to go a c=
omputer that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B controls the flight surfaces=2E=26nbsp=3B =
There is no direct manual =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B connection from the stick to =
the flight control surfaces=2E=26nbsp=3B Even in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the ol=
d F4=2C the flight control =22feel=22 was artificial -- based on =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B springs=2C as the hydraulic system supplied 3=2C000 psi to the =
flight =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B control surfaces=2C which came in really handy o=
ver about mach 1=2E1=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B You don=27t need a mi=
llion dollars worth of training to fly a IVP =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B safely=2E=26=
nbsp=3B HPAT=2C yes=2E) =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=
=3B On Jun 24=2C 2011=2C at 11=3A24 AM=2C Wolfgang wrote=3A =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility=
=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Military pilots get over a million dollars=
 worth of training =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B each to be able to handle their =22u=
nstable=22 aircraft=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=
=3B =26gt=3B I don=27t see that happening for IVP drivers=2E =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B There are a couple of=
 things that can be done that don=27t =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B adversely affect =
performance or handling=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Stall strips and la=
rger tail feathers come to mind=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Wolfgang =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B From=3A John Hafen =26lt=3Bj=2Ehafen=40comcast=2En=
et=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Sender=3A =26lt=3Bmarv=40lancaironl=
ine=2Enet=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Subject=3A Airplane needs to=
 be =22fixed=2C=22 Stall Speeds=2C Wing Cuffs=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Vortex=
 Generators for L=2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Date=3A Fri=2C 24 J=
un 2011 06=3A05=3A59 -0400 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B To=3A lml=40lancair=
online=2Enet =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Wolfgang states=3A=26nbsp=3B =22I=
f the airframe can=27t get back in the =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B envelope=2C then the airframe needs to be fixed=2E=22 =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B There are lots of historical ex=
amples to the contrary=2C like the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B F4 Phantom=2E=26nbsp=
=3B Once in a flat spin=2C the plane was unrecoverable from =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B any altitude=2E=26nbsp=3B =22Stick Forward=2C Ailerons and Rudder N=
eutral=2C If not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Recovered=2C Maintain Full Forward Sti=
ck and Deploy Drag Shoot=22 were =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B not enough=2E=26nbsp=3B=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Yet the F4 was the =
work horse fighter for the Navy=2C Air Force=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Marines=
=2C and hosts of allies for decades=2E=26nbsp=3B And it was fast=2C over=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Mach II=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B Yet=2C you stayed far far away from =22departing=22 -- high ang=
le of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B attack=2C stick one way and the rudder the other=2E=
=2E=2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Most ad=
vanced stalls in IVP are recoverable=2C given 10=2C000 feet =3CBR=3E=26g=
t=3B or so=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B But un=
like the F4=2C most of our IVPs are not equipped with Martin- =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B Baker ejection seats=2E =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B The F4 never got fixed=2E=26=
nbsp=3B The IVP got =22fixed=2E=22=26nbsp=3B It=27s called the =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =22ES=2C=22 with larger differently shaped wings and fixed gear=2C=
 that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B became the Columbia/Cessna=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26=
gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B The =22fix=22 was a series of tradeoffs =
that IMHO made it a less =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B desirable plane -- slower=2C f=
ixed gear=2C non-pressurized=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B I=27ll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself=2C =
thank =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B you=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B John Hafen =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B On Jun 23=2C 2011=2C at 9=3A11 AM=2C Wolfgang wrote=3A =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B I=2C for one=2C want to=
 be able to recover from an =22adverse=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B condition sho=
uld I ever find myself in one=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Knowing where=
 the edges of the envelope are and how to get beck =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B in t=
he envelope should be required=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B If the airfr=
ame can=27t get back in the envelope=2C then the =3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B airframe needs to be fixed=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26nbsp=3B=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Wolfgang =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B ----- Orig=
inal Message ----- =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B From=3A Karen Farnsworth =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B To=3A lml=40lancaironline=2Enet =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
=26gt=3B Sent=3A Wednesday=2C June 22=2C 2011 2=3A12 PM =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B Subject=3A RE=3A =5BLML=5D Re=3A Stall Speeds=2C Wing Cuffs=2C=
 Vortex =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Generators for L=2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26g=
t=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B David=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B I have no problem with anyon=
e who wants to explore the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =93envelope=94 of his/her ai=
rplane=2E However=2C I take great exception to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B you grou=
nding me because I might choose to not get as near to the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 edge as you=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CB=
R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Lynn Farnsworth =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Super Legacy =23235 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B TSIO-550 Powered =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Reno Race =2344 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B=
 =26gt=3B Mmo =2E6 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B I agree 100=25 also=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=3CBR=3E
=26gt=3B =26gt=3B If you don=92t know what the incipient stall feels lik=
e in the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B stick and the airframe you should not be flyin=
g the Legacy or =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 320=92s=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3C=
BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B (Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of=
 Lancair pilots=2E) =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =
=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B David T=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26=
gt=3B =26gt=3B Legacy =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=
 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3C/BODY=3E