X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 07:34:47 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm17-vm0.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([98.139.53.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5033287 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:25:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.53.208; envelope-from=airmale4@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.52.189] by nm17.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jun 2011 03:25:10 -0000 Received: from [98.139.52.185] by tm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jun 2011 03:25:10 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1068.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jun 2011 03:25:10 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 256105.89945.bm@omp1068.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 68777 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Jun 2011 03:25:10 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pF0NgWEpnWrUftVuWRyMpkDdZODT0bQlwDFl1Z2aiCjbIgFJhYibt2GaLpmWe4JvRtkgN+odY8McxGxm5AhnYmQRYrXdRgd8U24QZ8T0HcTmUTttQY/NGvW+6fljoad4FLOgsLDGruAJvWpmK0LwvzEa+P0s54nJ/hiE6VpzGRg=; X-Original-Message-ID: <120977.59068.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: dhpvcvIVM1m9SJuEgo0.L0Lq8D6e3qmIB5AO3n7FIzS4Z8x L_igWHS_noQqwzKnpuS_.3aHIXNzLxyYVPWLKzv96ej84vKTvoIsl._T2tQr L7ruEI2H6iFEcu4VOcRM6PDT4iPiI2cDANZroLGCnvbwTDMXjhkBjxft0Qog BK_TujpHWJ4Jcx58Dx_lPpPZ5vpc2AdBKqJ4enIOXXLb178ZDCzAolIJH6O6 Je3RIOwrT2RFfQm0U1nBG0rzwHeRHq30lNeOKf2oJBv4mPK_v1xvltA6juHi yuKnIqsYD1iqfTU9ev7c2WwiBSth.qWW52NxhnhjZylQiC8MWQ7_4ZU4EpzT hP8cZedgcqDc1_dMUmNGjPiCkS52ik.q5.x3ArY58RilANrQFTzqeQ7YsQ5B qZXHGNvBXOcDzGw-- Received: from [75.88.112.162] by web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 20:25:09 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: X-Original-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 20:25:09 -0700 (PDT) From: J H Webb Reply-To: J H Webb Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L... X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1359478009-1309145109=:59068" --0-1359478009-1309145109=:59068 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colyn,=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To do it properly on an experimental airplan= e, it must be custom installed.=C2=A0 This is because the airfoil varies in= both angle of incident as well as contour, this makes for very difficult '= cookie cutter' improvements. =0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For the question of s= ize I have found that a quarter inch right angle about 6" long works in a v= ery satisfactory fashion and really tames the stall.=C2=A0 BUT installed in= correctly either vertically or spanwise, they can also add greatly to the e= xcitement of stalls.=0A=0AJack Webb=0ASee below=0A=0A=0A=0A________________= ________________=0AFrom: Colyn Case =0ATo: lml@lan= caironline.net=0ASent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 8:13 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: A= irplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators fo= r L...=0A=0A=0AJack, I know testing is required but I am curious what size = and incidence you have found most frequently works on a IV=0A?=0A=0AColyn= =0A=0A=0AOn Jun 25, 2011, at 12:35 PM, J H Webb wrote:=0A=0AAs someone who = spent a great deal of time in low speed aerodynamics, stalls in the LIV or = other lancair models can be improved greatly with the correct addition of F= low Strips (stall strips). They are not just glue on and the stall is impro= ved but when you correctly apply them the stall will be improved (stall war= ning plus some prestall buffet) significantly. This is normally done with o= nly a 1 or 2 knot change in stall speed. This normally will not affect the = spin charastics. =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Jack Webb=0A>L360, LIV =0A>AeroSpace Engin= eer BSAE =0A>FAA Designated Check airman for C421, C404 & C310=0A>ATP, CFI = Airplanes & Instruments, Multi, & Sea=0A>Numerous Jet Type Ratings=0A>Exper= ienced Experimental Test Pilot both multi and single engine aircraft=0A>For= mer Chief Engineering Test Pilot for a Major Manufacturer=0A>=0A>=0A>Ohio= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A>From: John Hafen =0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net=0A>Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011= 11:02 PM=0A>Subject: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds,= Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...=0A>=0A>=0A>One has to choose betwee= n stall strips and a heated leading edge.=0A>=0A>=0A>For me personally, sta= ll strips would be more applicable for my Cub, which doesn't need them at a= ll. =C2=A0And I have been in inadvertent icing conditions in the IVP and wa= tched the ice curl up like potato chips and blow away. =C2=A0I'll keep the = heated leading edge, thank you, rather than a stall strip that I would neve= r use.=0A>=0A>=0A>And as far as a larger tail???=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0A. =C2=A0Wh= o is going to spend the additional money to make their IVP look stupid?=0A>= =C2=A0=C2=A0B. =C2=A0The IVP is tail heavy already -- no one wants to load = extra weight aft of the CG.=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0C. =C2=A0Challenged pilots shoul= d perhaps fly a different plane.=0A>=0A>=0A>I love the IVP the way it is. = =C2=A0I have never crashed and died. =C2=A0I understand the envelope, and l= ike it;)=0A>=0A>=0A>John=0A>=0A>=0A>(On military pilots and "training" to f= ly unstable air craft -- I don't think you are accurate on this one. =C2=A0= The F-16 is so unstable that it requires 20+ inputs per second to maintain = straight and level flight. =C2=A0It is computerized. =C2=A0No human being o= n earth, no matter how highly trained, can manually fly an F-16 straight an= d level. =C2=A0The "fly by wire" F-16 is way easier to fly than my IVP. =C2= =A0The original side stick didn't move at all, but responded to pressure. = =C2=A0Pilots hated it so it was redesigned to move slightly. =C2=A0And the = pilots wishes to go a computer that controls the flight surfaces. =C2=A0The= re is no direct manual connection from the stick to the flight control surf= aces. =C2=A0Even in the old F4, the flight control "feel" was artificial --= based on springs, as the hydraulic system supplied 3,000 psi to the flight= control surfaces, which came in really handy over about mach 1.1. =C2=A0Yo= u don't need a million dollars worth of training to fly a IVP safely. =C2=A0HPAT, yes.)=0A>=0A>=0A>On Jun 24, 2011, at 11:24 AM, Wolfgang wrote:= =0A>Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility.=0A>Military pil= ots get over a million dollars worth of training each to be able to handle = their "unstable" aircraft.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I don't see that happening for IVP = drivers.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>There are a couple of things that can be done that do= n't adversely affect performance or handling.=0A>Stall strips and larger ta= il feathers come to mind.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Wolfgang=0A>=C2=A0=0A>From: John Haf= en =0A>Sender: =0A>Subject: = Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators f= or L... =0A>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400 =0A>To: lml@lancaironline= .net =0A>Wolfgang states: =C2=A0"If the airframe can't get back in the en= velope, then the airframe needs to be fixed."=0A>=0A>=0A>There are lots of = historical examples to the contrary, like the F4 Phantom. =C2=A0Once in a f= lat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any altitude. =C2=A0"Stick Forwa= rd, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not Recovered, Maintain Full Forward St= ick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not enough. =C2=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Yet the F4 wa= s the work horse fighter for the Navy, Air Force, Marines, and hosts of all= ies for decades. =C2=A0And it was fast, over Mach II.=0A>=0A>=0A>Yet, you s= tayed far far away from "departing" -- high angle of attack, stick one way = and the rudder the other.....=0A>=0A>=0A>Most advanced stalls in IVP are re= coverable, given 10,000 feet or so.=0A>=0A>=0A>But unlike the F4, most of o= ur IVPs are not equipped with Martin-Baker ejection seats.=0A>=0A>=0A>The F= 4 never got fixed. =C2=A0The IVP got "fixed." =C2=A0It's called the "ES," w= ith larger differently shaped wings and fixed gear, that became the Columbi= a/Cessna.=0A>=0A>=0A>The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made it = a less desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear, non-pressurized.=0A>=0A>=0A>I= 'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself, thank you. =C2=A0= =0A>=0A>=0A>John Hafen=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Jun 23, 2011, = at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote:=0A>=0A>I, for one, want to be able to recover f= rom an "adverse" condition should I ever find myself in one.=0A>Knowing whe= re the edges of the envelope are and how to get beck in the envelope should= be required.=0A>If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the a= irframe needs to be fixed.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Wolfgang=0A>----- Original Message = -----=0A>>From:=C2=A0Karen Farnsworth=0A>>To:=C2=A0lml@lancaironline.net=0A= >>Sent:=C2=A0Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM=0A>>Subject:=C2=A0RE: [LML] R= e: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>David= ,=0A>>I have no problem with anyone who wants to explore the =E2=80=9Cenvel= ope=E2=80=9D of his/her airplane. However, I take great exception to you gr= ounding me because I might choose to not get as near to the edge as you.=0A= >>Lynn Farnsworth=0A>>Super Legacy #235=0A>>TSIO-550 Powered=0A>>Reno=C2=A0= Race #44=0A>>Mmo .6=0A>>I agree 100% also.=0A>>If you don=E2=80=99t know wh= at the incipient stall feels like in the stick and the airframe you should = not be flying the Legacy or 320=E2=80=99s.=C2=A0=0A>>(Not knowing this is t= he single biggest killer of Lancair pilots.)=0A>>David T.=0A>>Legacy =0A>= =0A>=0A> --0-1359478009-1309145109=:59068 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Colyn,
=

    To do it properly= on an experimental airplane, it must be custom installed.  This is be= cause the airfoil varies in both angle of incident as well as contour, this= makes for very difficult 'cookie cutter' improvements.
    For the question of size I have found that a qu= arter inch right angle about 6" long works in a very satisfactory fashion a= nd really tames the stall.  BUT installed incorrectly either verticall= y or spanwise, they can also add greatly to the excitement of stalls.

Jack Webb
See below

From:<= /span> Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 8:13 AM
<= b>Subject: [LML] Re: Airplane= needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...<= br>
=0A
Jack, I know testing is required= but I am curious what size and incidence you have found most frequently wo= rks on a IV
?

Colyn

On= Jun 25, 2011, at 12:35 PM, J H Webb wrote:

As someone who spent a great deal of time in low = speed aerodynamics, stalls in the LIV or other lancair models can be improv= ed greatly with the correct addition of Flow Strips (stall strips). They ar= e not just glue on and the stall is improved but when you correctly apply t= hem the stall will be improved (stall warning plus some prestall buffet) si= gnificantly. This is normally done with only a 1 or 2 knot change in stall = speed. This normally will not affect the spin charastics.

=0A=0A
Jack Webb
=0AL360, LIV
=0A=0A
AeroSpace Engineer BSAE
=0AFAA Designated Check airman f= or C421, C404 & C310
=0AATP, CFI Airplanes & Instruments, Multi,= & Sea
=0ANumerous Jet Type Ratings
=0AExperienced Experimental T= est Pilot both multi and single engine aircraft
=0AFormer Chief Engineer= ing Test Pilot for a Major Manufacturer

=0A
=0A=0AOhio
=0A=0A

From: John Hafen <j.hafen@comcast.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Friday, June 24= , 2011 11:02 PM
Subject:= [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex G= enerators for L...

=0A
One has to ch= oose between stall strips and a heated leading edge.

For= me personally, stall strips would be more applicable for my Cub, which doe= sn't need them at all.  And I have been in inadvertent icing condition= s in the IVP and watched the ice curl up like potato chips and blow away. &= nbsp;I'll keep the heated leading edge, thank you, rather than a stall stri= p that I would never use.

And as far as a larger t= ail???
  A.  Who is going to spend the additional = money to make their IVP look stupid?
  B.  The IVP= is tail heavy already -- no one wants to load extra weight aft of the CG.<= /div>
  C.  Challenged pilots should perhaps fly a diffe= rent plane.

I love the IVP the way it is.  I = have never crashed and died.  I understand the envelope, and like=0A i= t;)

John

(On military pil= ots and "training" to fly unstable air craft -- I don't think you are accur= ate on this one.  The F-16 is so unstable that it requires 20+ inputs = per second to maintain straight and level flight.  It is computerized.=  No human being on earth, no matter how highly trained, can manually = fly an F-16 straight and level.  The "fly by wire" F-16 is way easier = to fly than my IVP.  The original side stick didn't move at all, but r= esponded to pressure.  Pilots hated it so it was redesigned to move sl= ightly.  And the pilots wishes to go a computer that controls the flig= ht surfaces.  There is no direct manual connection from the stick to t= he flight control surfaces.  Even in the old F4, the flight control "f= eel" was artificial -- based on springs, as the hydraulic system supplied 3= ,000 psi to the flight control surfaces, which came in really=0A handy over= about mach 1.1.  You don't need a million dollars worth of training t= o fly a IVP safely.  HPAT, yes.)

On Jun 24, 20= 11, at 11:24 AM, Wolfgang wrote:

Militar= y aircraft are unstable to allow better agility.
Military pilots get over a million dollars worth of = training each to be able to handle their "unstable" aircraft.
<= div> 
I don't see that happening for IVP=0A drivers.
 
There are a couple = of things that can be done that don't adversely affect performance or handl= ing.
Stall strips and larg= er tail feathers come to mind.
 
W= olfgang
 
=
<marv@lancaironline.net>
From:John Hafen <j.hafen@comcast.net<= /a>>
Sender:
Subject:= Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators f= or L...
Date:Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400
To:lml@lancairo= nline.net
Wolfgang states:  "If the airframe= can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe needs to be fixed."

There are lots of historical examples to the contrary, like the F= 4 Phantom.  Once in a flat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any = altitude.  "Stick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not Recover= ed, Maintain Full Forward=0A Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not enough. =  

Yet the F4 was the= work horse fighter for the Navy, Air Force, Marines, and hosts of allies f= or decades.  And it was fast, over Mach II.

Yet, you stayed far far away from "de= parting" -- high angle of attack, stick one way and the rudder the other...= ..

Most advanced stalls in IVP are recovera= ble, given 10,000 feet or so.

But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not equipped wit= h Martin-Baker ejection seats.

The F4 never got=0A fixed.  The IVP got "fixed." &= nbsp;It's called the "ES," with larger differently shaped wings and fixed g= ear, that became the Columbia/Cessna.

The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO = made it a less desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear, non-pressurized.

<= /font>
I'll happily ke= ep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself, thank you.  <= /div>

John Hafen



On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote:

= I, for one, want to be able to recover from= an "adverse" condition should I ever find myself in one.
= Knowing where the edges of the envelope are= and how to get beck in the envelope should be required.
<= font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">If the airframe can't get back in the envelo= pe, then the airframe needs to be fixed.
 
Wolf= gang
----- Original Message -----<= /div>
From:&n= bsp;Karen Farnsworth
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM
Subject:<= /b> RE: [LML= ] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...

David,
I have no probl= em with anyone who wants to explore the =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D of his/h= er airplane. However, I take great exception to=0A you grounding me because= I might choose to not get as near to the edge as you.
<= div class=3D"yiv1442580958MsoNormal">
Lynn Farnsworth
Super Legacy #235
= TSIO-550 Powered
Reno Race #44
Mmo .6
I= agree 100% also.
= If you don=E2=80= =99t know what the incipient stall feels like in the stick and the airframe= you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=E2=80=99s. <= /div>
(Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of= Lancair pilots.)
=
David T.
Le= gacy
<= /td>



<= /div>



--0-1359478009-1309145109=:59068--