X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 12:35:57 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm6.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([98.139.52.203] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5032353 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:06:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.52.203; envelope-from=airmale4@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.52.195] by nm6.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2011 13:05:47 -0000 Received: from [98.139.52.167] by tm8.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2011 13:05:47 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1050.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2011 13:05:47 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 618525.36166.bm@omp1050.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 94701 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Jun 2011 13:05:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=aAzdtP+ct1naCtVDUQ6Xz+FljzjMQjiVPKsb19VxqTkrNQeZjCsV7UO/+/od9H7lottlntpHGc6xCt8QHFysHNNVKHHJAQxMQhQSPxbBRHkQSXIP1iPiM0rHQWtIsyGHtPcU/bjdShL1LIrh/tmKY5KMiDtlL5QdmxWt1H3e0Oc=; X-Original-Message-ID: <267937.89529.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: vYrrv7cVM1kvNX9hb0VibRLvNgD4jBEL4F4EpfT2g_8npcS AQNDCIoZ26SpfOJ8AO1IBx3QL9ySzvgZucpSpcpLna4vBWh3KQyfrwMuAq7M CR4KS2UrHN147ve3TCJAPiryJEV1k5IP5e7NgkhVF6kJobkcZLxj.nBNsROR AwMWwc4CXb8QTk_4AbfiID_UFD.WhlinDwqPODCIqd45yg04s2IPrTeNjDdI geDrYa.kMNI3CtgzUZFEHNa2WT.BcU9d_soSDBzlO2JbQTtP58qsOzWCly1E i2aM9EBtTrcoyxU4sCQGWY6hHmY3OtD59SYV3Sul.Eo.HXq8iVFOXnXVW0xs FENkKT2GsBVLLXbWRPnHBCO6nG3Ho5_Xw.bg.IU4uMaHcY1s9EAQbr7e4W2a 5hJKopT6QBSFSRg-- Received: from [75.88.112.162] by web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 06:05:47 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: X-Original-Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 06:05:47 -0700 (PDT) From: J H Webb Reply-To: J H Webb Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L... X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-811970102-1309007147=:89529" --0-811970102-1309007147=:89529 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As someone who spent a great deal of time in low speed aerodynamics, stalls= in the LIV or other lancair models can be improved greatly with the correc= t addition of Flow Strips (stall strips). They are not just glue on and the= stall is improved but when you correctly apply them the stall will be impr= oved (stall warning plus some prestall buffet) significantly. This is norma= lly done with only a 1 or 2 knot change in stall speed. This normally will = not affect the spin charastics. =0A=0A=0AJack Webb=0AL360, LIV =0AAeroSpace= Engineer BSAE =0AFAA Designated Check airman for C421, C404 & C310=0AATP, = CFI Airplanes & Instruments, Multi, & Sea=0ANumerous Jet Type Ratings=0AExp= erienced Experimental Test Pilot both multi and single engine aircraft=0AFo= rmer Chief Engineering Test Pilot for a Major Manufacturer=0A=0A=0AOhio=0A= =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Hafen =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASent: Friday, June 24, 2011 11:02 PM=0AS= ubject: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, V= ortex Generators for L...=0A=0A=0AOne has to choose between stall strips an= d a heated leading edge.=0A=0AFor me personally, stall strips would be more= applicable for my Cub, which doesn't need them at all. =C2=A0And I have be= en in inadvertent icing conditions in the IVP and watched the ice curl up l= ike potato chips and blow away. =C2=A0I'll keep the heated leading edge, th= ank you, rather than a stall strip that I would never use.=0A=0AAnd as far = as a larger tail???=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0A. =C2=A0Who is going to spend the additi= onal money to make their IVP look stupid?=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0B. =C2=A0The IVP is= tail heavy already -- no one wants to load extra weight aft of the CG.=0A= =C2=A0=C2=A0C. =C2=A0Challenged pilots should perhaps fly a different plane= .=0A=0AI love the IVP the way it is. =C2=A0I have never crashed and died. = =C2=A0I understand the envelope, and like it;)=0A=0AJohn=0A=0A(On military = pilots and "training" to fly unstable air craft -- I don't think you are ac= curate on this one. =C2=A0The F-16 is so unstable that it requires 20+ inpu= ts per second to maintain straight and level flight. =C2=A0It is computeriz= ed. =C2=A0No human being on earth, no matter how highly trained, can manual= ly fly an F-16 straight and level. =C2=A0The "fly by wire" F-16 is way easi= er to fly than my IVP. =C2=A0The original side stick didn't move at all, bu= t responded to pressure. =C2=A0Pilots hated it so it was redesigned to move= slightly. =C2=A0And the pilots wishes to go a computer that controls the f= light surfaces. =C2=A0There is no direct manual connection from the stick t= o the flight control surfaces. =C2=A0Even in the old F4, the flight control= "feel" was artificial -- based on springs, as the hydraulic system supplie= d 3,000 psi to the flight control surfaces, which came in really handy over= about mach 1.1. =C2=A0You don't need a million dollars worth of training t= o fly a IVP safely. =C2=A0HPAT, yes.)=0A=0A=0AOn Jun 24, 2011, at 11:24 AM, Wolfgang wrote:=0A= Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility.=0AMilitary pilots g= et over a million dollars worth of training each to be able to handle their= "unstable" aircraft.=0A=C2=A0=0AI don't see that happening for IVP drivers= .=0A=C2=A0=0AThere are a couple of things that can be done that don't adver= sely affect performance or handling.=0AStall strips and larger tail feather= s come to mind.=0A=C2=A0=0AWolfgang=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom: John Hafen =0ASender: =0ASubject: Airplane needs t= o be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L... =0ADate:= Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400 =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0AWolfgang= states: =C2=A0"If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the ai= rframe needs to be fixed."=0A=0AThere are lots of historical examples to th= e contrary, like the F4 Phantom. =C2=A0Once in a flat spin, the plane was u= nrecoverable from any altitude. =C2=A0"Stick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder N= eutral, If not Recovered, Maintain Full Forward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot= " were not enough. =C2=A0=0A=0AYet the F4 was the work horse fighter for th= e Navy, Air Force, Marines, and hosts of allies for decades. =C2=A0And it w= as fast, over Mach II.=0A=0AYet, you stayed far far away from "departing" -= - high angle of attack, stick one way and the rudder the other.....=0A=0AMo= st advanced stalls in IVP are recoverable, given 10,000 feet or so.=0A=0ABu= t unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not equipped with Martin-Baker ejecti= on seats.=0A=0AThe F4 never got fixed. =C2=A0The IVP got "fixed." =C2=A0It'= s called the "ES," with larger differently shaped wings and fixed gear, tha= t became the Columbia/Cessna.=0A=0AThe "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that= IMHO made it a less desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear, non-pressurized= .=0A=0AI'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself, thank you.= =C2=A0=0A=0AJohn Hafen=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfg= ang wrote:=0A=0AI, for one, want to be able to recover from an "adverse" co= ndition should I ever find myself in one.=0AKnowing where the edges of the = envelope are and how to get beck in the envelope should be required.=0AIf t= he airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe needs to be f= ixed.=0A=C2=A0=0AWolfgang=0A----- Original Message -----=0A>From:=C2=A0Kare= n Farnsworth=0A>To:=C2=A0lml@lancaironline.net=0A>Sent:=C2=A0Wednesday, Jun= e 22, 2011 2:12 PM=0A>Subject:=C2=A0RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs,= Vortex Generators for L...=0A>=0A>=0A>David,=0A>I have no problem with any= one who wants to explore the =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D of his/her airplane= . However, I take great exception to you grounding me because I might choos= e to not get as near to the edge as you.=0A>Lynn Farnsworth=0A>Super Legacy= #235=0A>TSIO-550 Powered=0A>Reno=C2=A0Race #44=0A>Mmo .6=0A>I agree 100% a= lso.=0A>If you don=E2=80=99t know what the incipient stall feels like in th= e stick and the airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=E2=80= =99s.=C2=A0=0A>(Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of Lancair pi= lots.)=0A>David T.=0A>Legacy --0-811970102-1309007147=:89529 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As someone who spen= t a great deal of time in low speed aerodynamics, stalls in the LIV or othe= r lancair models can be improved greatly with the correct addition of Flow = Strips (stall strips). They are not just glue on and the stall is improved = but when you correctly apply them the stall will be improved (stall warning= plus some prestall buffet) significantly. This is normally done with only = a 1 or 2 knot change in stall speed. This normally will not affect the spin= charastics.

=0A=0A
Jack Webb
=0A= L360, LIV
=0A=0A
AeroSpace Engineer BSAE
=0AFAA Designated Check airman = for C421, C404 & C310
=0AATP, CFI Airplanes & Instruments, Multi= , & Sea
=0ANumerous Jet Type Ratings
=0AExperienced Experimental = Test Pilot both multi and single engine aircraft
=0AFormer Chief Enginee= ring Test Pilot for a Major Manufacturer

=0A
=0A=0A<= div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:-27.0pt">Ohio=0A=0A

From: John Hafen &= lt;j.hafen@comcast.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent= : Friday, June 24, 2011 11:02 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall= Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...

=0A
One has to choose between stall strips and a heated l= eading edge.

For me personally, stall strips would be mo= re applicable for my Cub, which doesn't need them at all.  And I have = been in inadvertent icing conditions in the IVP and watched the ice curl up= like potato chips and blow away.  I'll keep the heated leading edge, = thank you, rather than a stall strip that I would never use.

=
And as far as a larger tail???
  A.  Wh= o is going to spend the additional money to make their IVP look stupid?
  B.  The IVP is tail heavy already -- no one wants t= o load extra weight aft of the CG.
  C.  Challenge= d pilots should perhaps fly a different plane.

I l= ove the IVP the way it is.  I have never crashed and died.  I und= erstand the envelope, and like it;)

John

(On military p= ilots and "training" to fly unstable air craft -- I don't think you are acc= urate on this one.  The F-16 is so unstable that it requires 20+ input= s per second to maintain straight and level flight.  It is computerize= d.  No human being on earth, no matter how highly trained, can manuall= y fly an F-16 straight and level.  The "fly by wire" F-16 is way easie= r to fly than my IVP.  The original side stick didn't move at all, but= responded to pressure.  Pilots hated it so it was redesigned to move = slightly.  And the pilots wishes to go a computer that controls the fl= ight surfaces.  There is no direct manual connection from the stick to= the flight control surfaces.  Even in the old F4, the flight control = "feel" was artificial -- based on springs, as the hydraulic system supplied= 3,000 psi to the flight control surfaces, which came in really handy over about mach 1.1.  You don't need a million dollars worth of= training to fly a IVP safely.  HPAT, yes.)

On= Jun 24, 2011, at 11:24 AM, Wolfgang wrote:

Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility.
Military pilots get over a million dollar= s worth of training each to be able to handle their "unstable" aircraft.
 
I don't see that happening for IVP drivers.
 
There are a couple of things that can be done that don't adversely affect= performance or handling.
= Stall strips and larger tail feathers come to mind.
 
Wolfgang
 
=
<marv@lancaironline.net>
From:John Hafen <j.hafen@comcast.net<= /a>>
Sender:
Subject:= Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators f= or L...
Date:Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400
To:lml@lancairo= nline.net
= Wolfgang states:  "If the airframe= can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe needs to be fixed."

There are lots of historical examples to the contrary, like the F= 4 Phantom.  Once in a flat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any = altitude.  "Stick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not Recover= ed, Maintain Full Forward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not enough.  <= /div>

Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the N= avy, Air Force, Marines, and hosts of allies for decades.  And it was = fast, over Mach II.

Yet, you stayed far far away from "departing" -- high angle of att= ack, stick one way and the rudder the other.....

Most advanced stalls in IVP are recovera= ble, given 10,000 feet or so.

But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not equipped wit= h Martin-Baker ejection seats.

The F4 never got fixed.  The IVP got "fixed."  It's called the "ES," with larger = differently shaped wings and fixed gear, that became the Columbia/Cessna.

The "fix" = was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made it a less desirable plane -- slowe= r, fixed gear, non-pressurized.

I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myse= lf, thank you.  

John Hafen



On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote:

= I, for one, want to be able to recover from= an "adverse" condition should I ever find myself in one.
= Knowing where the edges of the envelope are= and how to get beck in the envelope should be required.
<= font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">If the airframe can't get back in the envelo= pe, then the airframe needs to be fixed.
 
Wolf= gang
----- Original Message -----<= /div>
From:&n= bsp;Karen Farnsworth
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM
Subject:<= /b> RE: [LML= ] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...

David,
I have no probl= em with anyone who wants to explore the =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D of his/h= er airplane. However, I take great exception to you grounding me because I might choose to not get as near to the edge as = you.
Lynn Farnsworth
Super Legacy #235
TSIO-550 Powered
Reno<= span> Race #= 44
Mmo .6
I= agree 100% also.
= If you don=E2=80= =99t know what the incipient stall feels like in the stick and the airframe= you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=E2=80=99s. <= /div>
(Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of= Lancair pilots.)
=
David T.
Le= gacy
<= /td>



<= /div>
--0-811970102-1309007147=:89529--