X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 23:02:51 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta21.charter.net ([216.33.127.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5031421 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:38:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.81; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta21.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.09.02.04 201-2219-117-106-20090629) with ESMTP id <20110624203734.MHZN11595.mta21.charter.net@imp11> for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:37:34 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([75.132.241.174]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id zwdZ1g00U3mUFT705wdaBw; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:37:34 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=vT9vkN3vVXssH3Ov7r/wQUs/sfIFjNPEFFf4aeKIi4A= c=1 sm=1 a=XBWurwtF0zsA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=VxlS/kh5Y2KhHY/Xui1ATg==:17 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=qdu1FZ5Viv7o9M1RWasA:9 a=WBDgSHWTWX0OJ7ACsSsA:7 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=lQLxztScGQE5aRBC:21 a=1Ncgd0LPdi2QaARP:21 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=5quDy_REZ2X-DNewtqsA:9 a=PhzAsWsr3pwSBEXTHG0A:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=VxlS/kh5Y2KhHY/Xui1ATg==:117 From: Terrence O'Neill Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-42--71827884 Subject: Re: [LML] Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L... X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:37:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) --Apple-Mail-42--71827884 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Amen, Wolfgang. Also, an AOA indicator. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of = cure. (I just made that up.)=20 : ) Terrence On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Wolfgang wrote: > Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility. > Military pilots get over a million dollars worth of training each to = be able to handle their "unstable" aircraft. > =20 > I don't see that happening for IVP drivers. > =20 > There are a couple of things that can be done that don't adversely = affect performance or handling. > Stall strips and larger tail feathers come to mind. > =20 > Wolfgang > =20 > From: John Hafen > Sender: > Subject: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, = Vortex Generators for L... > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Wolfgang states: "If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, = then the airframe needs to be fixed." >=20 > There are lots of historical examples to the contrary, like the F4 = Phantom. Once in a flat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any = altitude. "Stick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not = Recovered, Maintain Full Forward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not = enough. =20 >=20 > Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the Navy, Air Force, = Marines, and hosts of allies for decades. And it was fast, over Mach = II. >=20 > Yet, you stayed far far away from "departing" -- high angle of attack, = stick one way and the rudder the other..... >=20 > Most advanced stalls in IVP are recoverable, given 10,000 feet or so. >=20 > But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not equipped with Martin-Baker = ejection seats. >=20 > The F4 never got fixed. The IVP got "fixed." It's called the "ES," = with larger differently shaped wings and fixed gear, that became the = Columbia/Cessna. >=20 > The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made it a less desirable = plane -- slower, fixed gear, non-pressurized. >=20 > I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself, thank you. =20= >=20 > John Hafen >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote: >=20 > I, for one, want to be able to recover from an "adverse" condition = should I ever find myself in one. > Knowing where the edges of the envelope are and how to get beck in the = envelope should be required. > If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe = needs to be fixed. > =20 > Wolfgang > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Karen Farnsworth > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM > Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for = L... >=20 > David, >=20 >=20 > I have no problem with anyone who wants to explore the =93envelope=94 = of his/her airplane. However, I take great exception to you grounding me = because I might choose to not get as near to the edge as you. >=20 >=20 > Lynn Farnsworth >=20 > Super Legacy #235 >=20 > TSIO-550 Powered >=20 > Reno Race #44 >=20 > Mmo .6 >=20 >=20 > I agree 100% also. >=20 > If you don=92t know what the incipient stall feels like in the stick = and the airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=92s.=20 >=20 > (Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of Lancair pilots.) >=20 >=20 > David T. >=20 > Legacy >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-42--71827884 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Amen, Wolfgang.

Also, an AOA = indicator.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. (I = just made that up.) 
: = )

Terrence




On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:24 PM, = Wolfgang wrote:

Military = aircraft are unstable to allow better agility.
Military pilots get over a million dollars = worth of training each to be able to handle their "unstable" = aircraft.
 
I = don't see that happening for IVP drivers.
 
There are a couple = of things that can be done that don't adversely affect performance or = handling.
Stall strips = and larger tail feathers come to = mind.
 
Wolfgang
 
<= tr>= <= /tbody>
From:John Hafen = <j.hafen@comcast.net>
Sender:<marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject:Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing = Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...
Date:Fri, 24 Jun = 2011 06:05:59 -0400
To:lml@lancaironline.net
Wolfgang states:  "If the airframe can't get = back in the envelope, then the airframe needs to be = fixed."

There are lots of = historical examples to the contrary, like the F4 Phantom.  Once in = a flat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any altitude.  "Stick = Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not Recovered, Maintain Full = Forward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not enough. =  

Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the = Navy, Air Force, Marines, and hosts of allies for decades.  And it = was fast, over Mach II.

Yet, you stayed far far away from "departing" = -- high angle of attack, stick one way and the rudder the = other.....

Most advanced stalls in IVP are recoverable, = given 10,000 feet or so.

But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not = equipped with Martin-Baker ejection seats.

The F4 never got fixed.  The IVP got = "fixed."  It's called the "ES," with larger differently shaped = wings and fixed gear, that became the = Columbia/Cessna.

The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO = made it a less desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear, = non-pressurized.

I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the = IVP myself, thank you.  

John Hafen




On Jun 23, 2011, = at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote:

I, for one, want to be able to recover from = an "adverse" condition should I ever find myself in = one.
Knowing where the = edges of the envelope are and how to get beck in the envelope should be = required.
If the = airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe needs to be = fixed.
 
Wolfgang
----- = Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 = 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, = Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...

David,

I= have no problem with anyone who wants to explore the =93envelope=94 of = his/her airplane. However, I take great exception to you grounding me = because I might choose to not get as near to the edge as you.

Lynn Farnsworth

Super Legacy #235

TSIO-550 Powered

Reno Race #44

Mmo .6

I agree 100% also.

If you don=92t know = what the incipient stall feels like in the stick and the airframe you = should not be flying the Legacy or 320=92s. 

(Not knowing this is = the single biggest killer of Lancair pilots.)

David T.

Legacy


= --Apple-Mail-42--71827884--