X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 23:02:51 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5031496 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:48:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.52; envelope-from=joeczabaranek@gmail.com Received: by ywo7 with SMTP id 7so4517718ywo.25 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:47:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; b=WJUn7N7jYmJcDTSBPZODDd51RqVYRSqrF6FopZ9l6eTnwIYZEeKPsVF2Ad4qQmGmo/ S+OSq2Ggot36OEpQ4wh+Cfdj5uVwLwuVDgJV6CzwOHGYy+HH4qsR5DCu6G0kVBxEN/o3 KB+bRAyT7PJ15DFBpCSyuSnENDs216mO4aLaI= Received: by 10.236.184.165 with SMTP id s25mr6200659yhm.227.1308955679185; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [10.234.27.231] (47.sub-174-253-114.myvzw.com [174.253.114.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r68sm105602yhb.64.2011.06.24.15.47.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:47:58 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8E200) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--64007655 X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8E200) From: Joseph Czabaranek Subject: Re: [LML] Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L... X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:47:48 -0500 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-3--64007655 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Tail feathers and forward stability add drag. If there wasn't a trade off w= e'd all be a tame as a 152. Lance had a purpose when he made the plane the w= ay he did. If you don't agree, don't fly a IV. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:24 PM, "Wolfgang" wrote: > Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility. > Military pilots get over a million dollars worth of training each to be ab= le to handle their "unstable" aircraft. > =20 > I don't see that happening for IVP drivers. > =20 > There are a couple of things that can be done that don't adversely affect p= erformance or handling. > Stall strips and larger tail feathers come to mind. > =20 > Wolfgang > =20 > From: John Hafen > Sender: > Subject: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vor= tex Generators for L... > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Wolfgang states: "If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, then th= e airframe needs to be fixed." >=20 > There are lots of historical examples to the contrary, like the F4 Phantom= . Once in a flat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any altitude. "Sti= ck Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not Recovered, Maintain Full For= ward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not enough. =20 >=20 > Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the Navy, Air Force, Marines, an= d hosts of allies for decades. And it was fast, over Mach II. >=20 > Yet, you stayed far far away from "departing" -- high angle of attack, sti= ck one way and the rudder the other..... >=20 > Most advanced stalls in IVP are recoverable, given 10,000 feet or so. >=20 > But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not equipped with Martin-Baker eje= ction seats. >=20 > The F4 never got fixed. The IVP got "fixed." It's called the "ES," with l= arger differently shaped wings and fixed gear, that became the Columbia/Cess= na. >=20 > The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made it a less desirable pla= ne -- slower, fixed gear, non-pressurized. >=20 > I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself, thank you. =20 >=20 > John Hafen >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote: >=20 > I, for one, want to be able to recover from an "adverse" condition should I= ever find myself in one. > Knowing where the edges of the envelope are and how to get beck in the env= elope should be required. > If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe needs to= be fixed. > =20 > Wolfgang > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Karen Farnsworth > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM > Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L..= . >=20 > David, >=20 >=20 > I have no problem with anyone who wants to explore the =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2= =80=9D of his/her airplane. However, I take great exception to you g= rounding me because I might choose to not get as near to the edge as you. >=20 >=20 > Lynn Farnsworth >=20 > Super Legacy #235 >=20 > TSIO-550 Powered >=20 > Reno Race #44 >=20 > Mmo .6 >=20 >=20 > I agree 100% also. >=20 > If you don=E2=80=99t know what the incipient stall feels like in the stick= and the airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=E2=80=99s.=20 >=20 > (Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of Lancair pilots.) >=20 >=20 > David T. >=20 > Legacy >=20 --Apple-Mail-3--64007655 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Tail feathers and forward stability add= drag.  If there wasn't a trade off  we'd all be a tame as a 152. &= nbsp;Lance had a purpose when he made the plane the way he did.  If you= don't agree,  don't fly a IV.



Sent fr= om my iPhone

On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:24 PM, "Wolfgang" <Wolfgang@MiCom.net> wrote:

Military aircraft are unstable to allow= better=20 agility.
Military pilots get over a million doll= ars worth of=20 training each to be able to handle their "unstable" aircraft.
 
I don't see that happening for IVP=20 drivers.
 
There are a couple of things that can b= e done that=20 don't adversely affect performance or handling.
Stall strips and larger tail feathers c= ome to=20 mind.
 
Wolfgang
 
From: John Hafen=20 <j.hafen@comcast.n= et>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Airplane needs to be "fixed," St= all=20 Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400<= /td>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Wolfgang states:  "If the airframe can't get back in the envelope,=20 then the airframe needs to be fixed."=20

There are lots o= f historical examples=20 to the contrary, like the F4 Phantom.  Once in a flat spin, the p= lane=20 was unrecoverable from any altitude.  "Stick Forward, Ailerons an= d=20 Rudder Neutral, If not Recovered, Maintain Full Forward Stick and Depl= oy=20 Drag Shoot" were not enough.  

Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the Navy= ,=20 Air Force, Marines, and hosts of allies for decades.  And it was=20= fast, over Mach II.

Yet, you stayed far far away from "departing" --=20= high angle of attack, stick one way and the rudder the=20 other.....

Most advanced stalls in IVP are recoverable, given= =20 10,000 feet or so.

But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not=20 equipped with Martin-Baker ejection seats.

The F4 never got fixed.  The IVP got "fixed."= =20  It's called the "ES," with larger differently shaped wings and f= ixed=20 gear, that became the Columbia/Cessna.

The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made= =20 it a less desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear,=20 non-pressurized.

I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP=20= myself, thank you.  

John Hafen
On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote:

I, for one, want to be able to re= cover from=20 an "adverse" condition should I ever find myself in one.
Knowing where the edges of the en= velope are=20 and how to get beck in the envelope should be required.
If the airframe can't get back in= the=20 envelope, then the airframe needs to be fixed.
 
Wolfgang
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex=20= Generators for L...

David,

I have no=20 problem with anyone who wants to explore the =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80= =9D of his/her=20 airplane. However, I take great exception to you grounding me becaus= e I=20 might choose to not get as near to the edge as you.

Lynn=20 Farnsworth

Super Legacy=20 #235

TSIO-550=20 Powered

Ren= o Race #44

Mmo .6

I agree=20 100% also.

If you=20 don=E2=80=99t know what the incipient stall feels like in the stick a= nd the=20 airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=E2=80=99s. =

(Not=20 knowing this is the single biggest killer of Lancair pilots.)

David=20 T.

Legacy

=
= --Apple-Mail-3--64007655--