X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:24:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([71.74.56.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5031146 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:22:59 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=71.74.56.122; envelope-from=Wolfgang@MiCom.net X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=5asQ6euaRPJxDdFxwvXsn6JDb7fmFbz8qWDLMfa45gU= c=1 sm=0 a=_x_2Z8nTUP8A:10 a=ttCsPuSJ-FAA:10 a=MHZY6FYWMEQOp7S43i2QIw==:17 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=qdu1FZ5Viv7o9M1RWasA:9 a=hTjT32Yu3eT-K48msCoA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=2_-2ErPEsfVbLdMN:21 a=eXlpuyRXe_SqJilH:21 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=1ct6FyerNY5ZjYbXX74A:9 a=jHRDWAToYrSD1QKGNGoA:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=MHZY6FYWMEQOp7S43i2QIw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 74.218.201.50 Received: from [74.218.201.50] ([74.218.201.50:1505] helo=lobo) by hrndva-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id D3/80-24893-0BBA40E4; Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:22:25 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <000801cc3282$83e2adf0$6401a8c0@lobo> From: "Wolfgang" X-Original-To: Subject: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L... X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:22:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01CC3260.FCA17270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01CC3260.FCA17270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Military aircraft are unstable to allow better agility. Military pilots get over a million dollars worth of training each to be = able to handle their "unstable" aircraft. I don't see that happening for IVP drivers. There are a couple of things that can be done that don't adversely = affect performance or handling.=20 Stall strips and larger tail feathers come to mind. Wolfgang From: John Hafen =20 Sender: =20 Subject: Airplane needs to be "fixed," Stall Speeds, = Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L...=20 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 -0400=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 =20 =20 Wolfgang states: "If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, = then the airframe needs to be fixed."=20 There are lots of historical examples to the contrary, like the F4 = Phantom. Once in a flat spin, the plane was unrecoverable from any = altitude. "Stick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral, If not = Recovered, Maintain Full Forward Stick and Deploy Drag Shoot" were not = enough. =20 Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for the Navy, Air Force, = Marines, and hosts of allies for decades. And it was fast, over Mach = II. Yet, you stayed far far away from "departing" -- high angle of = attack, stick one way and the rudder the other..... Most advanced stalls in IVP are recoverable, given 10,000 feet or = so. But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are not equipped with = Martin-Baker ejection seats. The F4 never got fixed. The IVP got "fixed." It's called the = "ES," with larger differently shaped wings and fixed gear, that became = the Columbia/Cessna. The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that IMHO made it a less = desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear, non-pressurized. I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of the IVP myself, thank = you. =20 John Hafen On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote: I, for one, want to be able to recover from an "adverse" condition = should I ever find myself in one. Knowing where the edges of the envelope are and how to get beck in = the envelope should be required. If the airframe can't get back in the envelope, then the airframe = needs to be fixed. Wolfgang ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Karen Farnsworth=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex = Generators for L... David, I have no problem with anyone who wants to explore the = "envelope" of his/her airplane. However, I take great exception to you = grounding me because I might choose to not get as near to the edge as = you. Lynn Farnsworth Super Legacy #235 TSIO-550 Powered Reno Race #44 Mmo .6 I agree 100% also. If you don't know what the incipient stall feels like in the = stick and the airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or 320's. =20 (Not knowing this is the single biggest killer of Lancair = pilots.) David T. Legacy =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01CC3260.FCA17270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Military aircraft are unstable to allow = better=20 agility.
Military pilots get over a million = dollars worth of=20 training each to be able to handle their "unstable" = aircraft.
 
I don't see that happening for IVP=20 drivers.
 
There are a couple of things that can = be done that=20 don't adversely affect performance or handling.
Stall strips and larger tail feathers = come to=20 mind.
 
Wolfgang
 
lml@lancaironline.net
From: John Hafen=20 <j.hafen@comcast.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Airplane needs to be "fixed," = Stall=20 Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for = L...
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 06:05:59 = -0400
To:
Wolfgang states: =  "If the airframe can't get back in the = envelope,=20 then the airframe needs to be fixed."=20

There are lots of = historical examples=20 to the contrary, like the F4 Phantom.  Once in a flat spin, = the plane=20 was unrecoverable from any altitude.  "Stick Forward, = Ailerons and=20 Rudder Neutral, If not Recovered, Maintain Full Forward Stick and = Deploy=20 Drag Shoot" were not enough.  

Yet the F4 was the work horse fighter for = the Navy,=20 Air Force, Marines, and hosts of allies for decades.  And it = was=20 fast, over Mach II.

Yet, you stayed far far away from = "departing" --=20 high angle of attack, stick one way and the rudder the=20 other.....

Most advanced stalls in IVP are = recoverable, given=20 10,000 feet or so.

But unlike the F4, most of our IVPs are = not=20 equipped with Martin-Baker ejection seats.

The F4 never got fixed.  The IVP got = "fixed."=20  It's called the "ES," with larger differently shaped wings = and fixed=20 gear, that became the Columbia/Cessna.

The "fix" was a series of tradeoffs that = IMHO made=20 it a less desirable plane -- slower, fixed gear,=20 non-pressurized.

I'll happily keep the un-fixed version of = the IVP=20 myself, thank you.  

John Hafen
On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Wolfgang wrote:
=0A= =0A=
I, for one, want to be able to = recover from=20 an "adverse" condition should I ever find myself in = one.
Knowing where the edges of the = envelope are=20 and how to get beck in the envelope should be = required.
If the airframe can't get back in = the=20 envelope, then the airframe needs to be fixed.
 
Wolfgang
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, = Vortex=20 Generators for L...

David,

I have no=20 problem with anyone who wants to explore the =93envelope=94 of = his/her=20 airplane. However, I take great exception to you grounding me = because I=20 might choose to not get as near to the edge as you.

Lynn=20 Farnsworth

Super Legacy=20 #235

TSIO-550=20 Powered

Reno Race #44

Mmo .6

I agree=20 100% also.

If you=20 don=92t know what the incipient stall feels like in the stick = and the=20 airframe you should not be flying the Legacy or 320=92s.  =

(Not=20 knowing this is the single biggest killer of Lancair pilots.)

David=20 T.

Legacy

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