X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:15:13 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [198.64.152.110] (HELO sdc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5023969 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:46:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=198.64.152.110; envelope-from=ronald@sdc.com Received: from [192.168.1.38] [24.127.195.226] by sdc.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id ba48000035883d70; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:36:18 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 X-Original-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:45:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p From: RONALD STEVENS X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3391173926_354562" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3391173926_354562 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Yes so far what I have heard it doesn't and too many tried and failed badly= . And I was never to plan aerobatics, that is asking for troubles anyway in a plane that was planned to do long cross country flying. If I wanted to do aerobatics I would choose a different plane (not that the 4p can't do but I do not think it was purposely built for that) I am more a safe flyer anyway, like to keep the sunny side up. Also the stall speeds vary so much that keeping the speed up is the better and safer way to land. And who cares if you need more runway, it never is s= o long as the velocity takes lol (that plane has a ground effect that takes forever lol) But I wanted to thank you all for your input, you have no idea how much I have learned from this all :) Up to the next item..=8A. From: Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:34:42 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p Ronald, =20 This aircraft does not have much in the way of "pre stall signs" =20 Jeff > agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the pre > stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would feel = a > buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for Final = and > you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shear, distrac= tions > etc) >=20 -----Original Message----- From: RONALD STEVENS To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 11:45 am Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p Hi Bob I agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the pre stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would feel a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for Final an= d you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shear, distractions etc) I am the last one to try to explore, but the knowledge where it is is something you need to know. You cannot expect to have the same stall speed as your fellow 4p owner, because he might have built the plane the right wa= y LOL (just kidding) Most stall speeds I have seen are between 72-78 kts (landing configuration) but I even found online a plane that claims 61/67 kts (and I am pretty sure this was a typo, but just imagine you would take this as 'your' number, oop= s ;) So exploring is dangerous, totally agree on that, that is why I would not g= o further then the buffet and consider this 'your' number :) =3D=3D Ronald From: Bob Rickard Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:01 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p One of the main reasons all of us IV-P owners have a hell of a time getting insurance for our airplanes is because too many guys "explored" the stall characteristics of their airplane (and for many it was their last flight). I fly another airplane that can fly comfortably at 60 degrees AOA, and have a good bit of time as an operational test pilot, but I will never stall my IV-P intentionally. Or even get close. Like Colyn and John, I'm 120 on downwind, 110 at the base turn and 100 on final until the runway is assured= . Unless we fly the pattern at 8000 feet AGL, a stall will probably be fatal for any of us. Please don't be the next one to prove this point ! Bob Rickard On Jun 16, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Colyn Case wrote: > My speeds are similar. I would caution that this is test pilot stuff. > I indexed my wings also. The result was that the plane became ambivalent= as > to which direction it was going to roll off suddenly in the stall. > We also found that moving the stall strip which a bit down from the leadi= ng > edge would reduce the wall but increase stall speed 10 knots. >=20 > On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:24 AM, John Hafen wrote: >=20 >> Ronald:=20 >>=20 >> My IVP stalls clean at 76 kts clean, and 65 kts in landing configuration= . >> But I never get that slow. Or even close. I fly downwind at 130, a ver= y >> rounded base / transition to final at 120, and approach at 110 on final, >> slowing down to 100 over the fence. >>=20 >> One of the things my bird did when I was doing the initial testing was a= 90 >> degree snap roll to the right when I stalled it (And I mean Snap!). Fro= m >> there, it's pretty easy to get into a spin. >>=20 >> I fly a 1500 foot pattern for a little extra safety, knowing that any st= all >> even at that altitude would be un-recoverable. >>=20 >> Eventually, I had the wings "indexed," and ended up lowering the trailin= g >> edge of the right wing slightly perhaps 3/16th of an inch. It now stall= s >> straight ahead and I think my stall speeds were lowered slightly because= of >> that exercise. But it is still a squirrely stall that seems very unnatu= ral >> compared to other planes I've flown. it does this weird yaw thing, mayb= e >> because of the small tail. >>=20 >> A 4P is not your father's Olsmobile, or a Cessna. I's not a good plane = to go >> slow and low for sight seeing. And 4P's are all different. Not all of= them >> are square. You're smart to test it out before you buy to find a good o= ne. >>=20 >> All of this said, I LOVE my plane. I love that it is fast. You just ha= ve to >> know the machine to stay safe. >>=20 >> John Hafen >> IVP 413AJ 300 hours >>=20 >> On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:24 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>=20 >> I know this is a sensitive subject but I just got a flight test review b= ack >> from a plane that I am thinking to buy and was a bit surprised about the >> stall speeds that were in there. >>=20 >> What kind of stall speed (clean/50%/Dirty) do you have in your 4p? And w= ere >> you ever thinking of having it improved by Vortex Generators or Wing cuf= f? >>=20 >> Thanks -- Ronald >>=20 >=20 --B_3391173926_354562 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Yes so far what I have heard= it doesn't and too many tried and failed badly. And I was never to plan aer= obatics, that is asking for troubles anyway in a plane that was planned to d= o long cross country flying.

If I wanted to do aero= batics I would choose a different plane (not that the 4p can't do but I do n= ot think it was purposely built for that)

I am more= a safe flyer anyway, like to keep the sunny side up.

Also the stall speeds vary so much that keeping the speed up is the bette= r and safer way to land. And who cares if you need more runway, it never is = so long as the velocity takes lol (that plane has a ground effect that takes= forever lol)

But I wanted to thank you all for you= r input, you have no idea how much I have learned from this all :)

Up to the next item..….

From: <vtail= jeff@aol.com>
Reply-To: Lan= cair Mailing List <lml@lancaironli= ne.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2= 011 16:34:42 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vor= tex Generators for Lancair 4p

Ronald,
 
This aircraft do= es not have much in the way of "pre stall signs"
 
= Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: RONALD STEVENS <ronald@sdc.com= >
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 11:45 am
Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair = 4p

H= i Bob

I agree but you need to know when stall speed= comes close, so using the pre stall signs would be good enough for me. In o= ther words, if I would feel a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall sp= eed, then add 20 for Final and you should be good to land with a safe enough= margin (wind shear, distractions etc)

I am the las= t one to try to explore, but the knowledge where it is is something you need= to know. You cannot expect to have the same stall speed as your fellow 4p o= wner, because he might have built the plane the right way LOL (just kidding)=

Most stall speeds I have seen are between 72-78 kt= s (landing configuration) but I even found online a plane that claims 61/67 = kts (and I am pretty sure this was a typo, but just imagine you would take t= his as 'your' number, oops ;)

So exploring is dange= rous, totally agree on that, that is why I would not go further then the buf= fet and consider this 'your' number :)

=3D=3D Ronald

From: Bob Rickard = <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>=
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List &l= t;lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:01 -0400To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for L= ancair 4p

One of th= e main reasons all of us IV-P owners have a hell of a time getting insurance= for our airplanes is because too many guys "explored" the stall characteris= tics of their airplane (and for many it was their last flight).   I fly= another airplane that can fly comfortably at 60 degrees AOA, and have a goo= d bit of time as an operational test pilot, but I will never stall my IV-P i= ntentionally.  Or even get close.  Like Colyn and John, I'm 120 on= downwind, 110 at the base turn and 100 on final until the runway is assured= .   Unless we fly the pattern at 8000 feet AGL, a stall will probably b= e fatal for any of us.  Please don't be the next one to prove this poin= t !

Bob Rickard



On Jun 16, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net> wrote:

My speeds are similar.   I would caution that= this is test pilot stuff.   
I indexed my wings also.  The result was that the plane became am= bivalent as to which direction it was going to roll off suddenly in the stal= l.
We also found that moving the stall strip which a bit down from= the leading edge would reduce the wall but increase stall speed 10 knots.

On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:24 AM, John Hafen wrote:
<= br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
Ronald:

My IVP stalls clean at 76 kts clean, and 65 kts in land= ing configuration.  But I never get that slow.  Or even close. &nb= sp;I fly downwind at 130, a very rounded base / transition to final at 120, = and approach at 110 on final, slowing down to 100 over the fence.

One of the things my bird did when I was doing the init= ial testing was a 90 degree snap roll to the right when I stalled it (And I = mean Snap!).  From there, it's pretty easy to get into a spin.

I fly a 1500 foot pattern for a little extra safety, knowin= g that any stall even at that altitude would be un-recoverable.
Eventually, I had the wings "indexed," and ended up lowering th= e trailing edge of the right wing slightly perhaps 3/16th of an inch.  = It now stalls straight ahead and I think my stall speeds were lowered slight= ly because of that exercise.  But it is still a squirrely stall that se= ems very unnatural compared to other planes I've flown.  it does this w= eird yaw thing, maybe because of the small tail.

A = 4P is not your father's Olsmobile, or a Cessna.  I's not a good plane t= o go slow and low for sight seeing.   And 4P's are all different.  = ;Not all of them are square.  You're smart to test it out before you bu= y to find a good one.

All of this said, I LOVE my p= lane.  I love that it is fast.  You just have to know the machine = to stay safe.

John Hafen
IVP 413AJ 300 hour= s

On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:24 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:=

I know th= is is a sensitive subject but I just got a flight test review back from a pl= ane that I am thinking to buy and was a bit surprised about the stall speeds= that were in there.

What kind of stall speed (clea= n/50%/Dirty) do you have in your 4p? And were you ever thinking of having it= improved by Vortex Generators or Wing cuff?

Thanks= -- Ronald

<= br>
 --B_3391173926_354562--