X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:34:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-db03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.97] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5023852 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:31:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.97; envelope-from=VTAILJEFF@aol.com Received: from imo-da02.mx.aol.com (imo-da02.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.200]) by imr-db03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p5HIUZln006020 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:30:35 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-da02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.125f.11f014 (55719) for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.103]) by cia-md02.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD022-b2b84dfb9d4233f; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:30:31 -0400 Received: from webmail-d032 (webmail-d032.sim.aol.com [205.188.167.97]) by smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME022-b2b84dfb9d4233f; Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:30:26 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p X-Original-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:30:26 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 75.58.187.13 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDFB33C2DC508C_1CDC_5AD6B_webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33867-STANDARD Received: from 75.58.187.13 by webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com (205.188.167.97) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:30:25 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CDFB33C2D52C66-1CDC-2A6C1@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: VTAILJEFF@aol.com ----------MB_8CDFB33C2DC508C_1CDC_5AD6B_webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ronald, This aircraft does not have much in the way of "pre stall signs" Jeff agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the pre= stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would feel= a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for Fina= l and you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shear, di= stractions etc) -----Original Message----- From: RONALD STEVENS To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 11:45 am Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair= 4p Hi Bob I agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the pr= e stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would feel= a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for Fina= l and you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shear, di= stractions etc) I am the last one to try to explore, but the knowledge where it is is some= thing you need to know. You cannot expect to have the same stall speed as= your fellow 4p owner, because he might have built the plane the right way= LOL (just kidding) Most stall speeds I have seen are between 72-78 kts (landing configuration= ) but I even found online a plane that claims 61/67 kts (and I am pretty= sure this was a typo, but just imagine you would take this as 'your' numb= er, oops ;) So exploring is dangerous, totally agree on that, that is why I would not= go further then the buffet and consider this 'your' number :) =3D=3D Ronald From: Bob Rickard Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:01 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair= 4p One of the main reasons all of us IV-P owners have a hell of a time gettin= g insurance for our airplanes is because too many guys "explored" the stal= l characteristics of their airplane (and for many it was their last flight= ). I fly another airplane that can fly comfortably at 60 degrees AOA, an= d have a good bit of time as an operational test pilot, but I will never= stall my IV-P intentionally. Or even get close. Like Colyn and John, I'= m 120 on downwind, 110 at the base turn and 100 on final until the runway= is assured. Unless we fly the pattern at 8000 feet AGL, a stall will pr= obably be fatal for any of us. Please don't be the next one to prove this= point ! Bob Rickard On Jun 16, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Colyn Case wrote: My speeds are similar. I would caution that this is test pilot stuff. = =20 I indexed my wings also. The result was that the plane became ambivalent= as to which direction it was going to roll off suddenly in the stall. We also found that moving the stall strip which a bit down from the leadin= g edge would reduce the wall but increase stall speed 10 knots. On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:24 AM, John Hafen wrote: Ronald: My IVP stalls clean at 76 kts clean, and 65 kts in landing configuration.= But I never get that slow. Or even close. I fly downwind at 130, a ver= y rounded base / transition to final at 120, and approach at 110 on final,= slowing down to 100 over the fence. One of the things my bird did when I was doing the initial testing was a= 90 degree snap roll to the right when I stalled it (And I mean Snap!). = From there, it's pretty easy to get into a spin. I fly a 1500 foot pattern for a little extra safety, knowing that any stal= l even at that altitude would be un-recoverable. Eventually, I had the wings "indexed," and ended up lowering the trailing= edge of the right wing slightly perhaps 3/16th of an inch. It now stalls= straight ahead and I think my stall speeds were lowered slightly because= of that exercise. But it is still a squirrely stall that seems very unna= tural compared to other planes I've flown. it does this weird yaw thing,= maybe because of the small tail. A 4P is not your father's Olsmobile, or a Cessna. I's not a good plane to= go slow and low for sight seeing. And 4P's are all different. Not all= of them are square. You're smart to test it out before you buy to find= a good one. All of this said, I LOVE my plane. I love that it is fast. You just have= to know the machine to stay safe. John Hafen IVP 413AJ 300 hours On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:24 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: I know this is a sensitive subject but I just got a flight test review bac= k from a plane that I am thinking to buy and was a bit surprised about the= stall speeds that were in there. What kind of stall speed (clean/50%/Dirty) do you have in your 4p? And wer= e you ever thinking of having it improved by Vortex Generators or Wing cuf= f? Thanks -- Ronald ----------MB_8CDFB33C2DC508C_1CDC_5AD6B_webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Ronald,
 
This aircraft does not have much in the way of "pre stall signs"
 
Jeff
agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the= pre stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would= feel a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for= Final and you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shea= r, distractions etc)





-----Original Message-----
From: RONALD STEVENS <ronald@sdc.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 11:45 am
Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair= 4p

Hi Bob

I agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using= the pre stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I wou= ld feel a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20= for Final and you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind= shear, distractions etc)

I am the last one to try to explore, but the knowledge where it is is= something you need to know. You cannot expect to have the same stall spee= d as your fellow 4p owner, because he might have built the plane the right= way LOL (just kidding)

Most stall speeds I have seen are between 72-78 kts (landing configur= ation) but I even found online a plane that claims 61/67 kts (and I am pre= tty sure this was a typo, but just imagine you would take this as 'your'= number, oops ;)

So exploring is dangerous, totally agree on that, that is why I would= not go further then the buffet and consider this 'your' number :)

=3D=3D Ronald

From: Bob Rickard <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List &l= t;lml@lancaironline.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:01= -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds,= Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p

One of the main reasons all of us IV-P owners have a hell of a time= getting insurance for our airplanes is because too many guys "explored"= the stall characteristics of their airplane (and for many it was their la= st flight).   I fly another airplane that can fly comfortably at 60= degrees AOA, and have a good bit of time as an operational test pilot, bu= t I will never stall my IV-P intentionally.  Or even get close.  = ;Like Colyn and John, I'm 120 on downwind, 110 at the base turn and 100 on= final until the runway is assured.   Unless we fly the pattern at 80= 00 feet AGL, a stall will probably be fatal for any of us.  Please do= n't be the next one to prove this point !

Bob Rickard



On Jun 16, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net> wrote:

My speeds are similar.   I would caution that this is test pilot= stuff.   
I indexed my wings also.  The result was that the plane became= ambivalent as to which direction it was going to roll off suddenly in the= stall.
We also found that moving the stall strip which a bit down from the= leading edge would reduce the wall but increase stall speed 10 knots.

On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:24 AM, John Hafen wrote:

Ronald:

My IVP stalls clean at 76 kts clean, and 65 kts in landing configurat= ion.  But I never get that slow.  Or even close.  I fly dow= nwind at 130, a very rounded base / transition to final at 120, and approa= ch at 110 on final, slowing down to 100 over the fence.

One of the things my bird did when I was doing the initial testing wa= s a 90 degree snap roll to the right when I stalled it (And I mean Snap!).=  From there, it's pretty easy to get into a spin.

I fly a 1500 foot pattern for a little extra safety, knowing that any= stall even at that altitude would be un-recoverable.

Eventually, I had the wings "indexed," and ended up lowering the trai= ling edge of the right wing slightly perhaps 3/16th of an inch.  It= now stalls straight ahead and I think my stall speeds were lowered slight= ly because of that exercise.  But it is still a squirrely stall that= seems very unnatural compared to other planes I've flown.  it does= this weird yaw thing, maybe because of the small tail.

A 4P is not your father's Olsmobile, or a Cessna.  I's not a goo= d plane to go slow and low for sight seeing.   And 4P's are all diffe= rent.  Not all of them are square.  You're smart to test it out= before you buy to find a good one.

All of this said, I LOVE my plane.  I love that it is fast. &nbs= p;You just have to know the machine to stay safe.

John Hafen
IVP 413AJ 300 hours

On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:24 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

I know this is a sensitive subject but I just got a flight test revie= w back from a plane that I am thinking to buy and was a bit surprised abou= t the stall speeds that were in there.

What kind of stall speed (clean/50%/Dirty) do you have in your 4p? An= d were you ever thinking of having it improved by Vortex Generators or Win= g cuff?

Thanks -- Ronald


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