X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:45:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [198.64.152.110] (HELO sdc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5022871 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:27:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=198.64.152.110; envelope-from=ronald@sdc.com Received: from [192.168.1.105] [65.34.201.109] by sdc.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id d88c000837e16eda; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:17:56 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 X-Original-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:27:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p From: RONALD STEVENS X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3391086423_2002607" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3391086423_2002607 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Bob I agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the pre stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would feel a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for Final and you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shear, distractions etc) I am the last one to try to explore, but the knowledge where it is is something you need to know. You cannot expect to have the same stall speed as your fellow 4p owner, because he might have built the plane the right way LOL (just kidding) Most stall speeds I have seen are between 72-78 kts (landing configuration) but I even found online a plane that claims 61/67 kts (and I am pretty sure this was a typo, but just imagine you would take this as 'your' number, oops ;) So exploring is dangerous, totally agree on that, that is why I would not go further then the buffet and consider this 'your' number :) == Ronald From: Bob Rickard Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:01 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stall Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p One of the main reasons all of us IV-P owners have a hell of a time getting insurance for our airplanes is because too many guys "explored" the stall characteristics of their airplane (and for many it was their last flight). I fly another airplane that can fly comfortably at 60 degrees AOA, and have a good bit of time as an operational test pilot, but I will never stall my IV-P intentionally. Or even get close. Like Colyn and John, I'm 120 on downwind, 110 at the base turn and 100 on final until the runway is assured. Unless we fly the pattern at 8000 feet AGL, a stall will probably be fatal for any of us. Please don't be the next one to prove this point ! Bob Rickard On Jun 16, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Colyn Case wrote: > My speeds are similar. I would caution that this is test pilot stuff. > I indexed my wings also. The result was that the plane became ambivalent as > to which direction it was going to roll off suddenly in the stall. > We also found that moving the stall strip which a bit down from the leading > edge would reduce the wall but increase stall speed 10 knots. > > On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:24 AM, John Hafen wrote: > >> Ronald: >> >> My IVP stalls clean at 76 kts clean, and 65 kts in landing configuration. >> But I never get that slow. Or even close. I fly downwind at 130, a very >> rounded base / transition to final at 120, and approach at 110 on final, >> slowing down to 100 over the fence. >> >> One of the things my bird did when I was doing the initial testing was a 90 >> degree snap roll to the right when I stalled it (And I mean Snap!). From >> there, it's pretty easy to get into a spin. >> >> I fly a 1500 foot pattern for a little extra safety, knowing that any stall >> even at that altitude would be un-recoverable. >> >> Eventually, I had the wings "indexed," and ended up lowering the trailing >> edge of the right wing slightly perhaps 3/16th of an inch. It now stalls >> straight ahead and I think my stall speeds were lowered slightly because of >> that exercise. But it is still a squirrely stall that seems very unnatural >> compared to other planes I've flown. it does this weird yaw thing, maybe >> because of the small tail. >> >> A 4P is not your father's Olsmobile, or a Cessna. I's not a good plane to go >> slow and low for sight seeing. And 4P's are all different. Not all of them >> are square. You're smart to test it out before you buy to find a good one. >> >> All of this said, I LOVE my plane. I love that it is fast. You just have to >> know the machine to stay safe. >> >> John Hafen >> IVP 413AJ 300 hours >> >> On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:24 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >> >> I know this is a sensitive subject but I just got a flight test review back >> from a plane that I am thinking to buy and was a bit surprised about the >> stall speeds that were in there. >> >> What kind of stall speed (clean/50%/Dirty) do you have in your 4p? And were >> you ever thinking of having it improved by Vortex Generators or Wing cuff? >> >> Thanks -- Ronald >> > --B_3391086423_2002607 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob

<= div>I agree but you need to know when stall speed comes close, so using the = pre stall signs would be good enough for me. In other words, if I would feel= a buffet at 75 then I consider 75 as my stall speed, then add 20 for Final = and you should be good to land with a safe enough margin (wind shear, distra= ctions etc)

I am the last one to try to explore, bu= t the knowledge where it is is something you need to know. You cannot expect= to have the same stall speed as your fellow 4p owner, because he might have= built the plane the right way LOL (just kidding)

M= ost stall speeds I have seen are between 72-78 kts (landing configuration) b= ut I even found online a plane that claims 61/67 kts (and I am pretty sure t= his was a typo, but just imagine you would take this as 'your' number, oops = ;)

So exploring is dangerous, totally agree on that= , that is why I would not go further then the buffet and consider this 'your= ' number :)

=3D=3D Ronald

From: Bob Rickard <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Da= te: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:01 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.n= et>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stal= l Speeds, Wing Cuffs, Vortex Generators for Lancair 4p

One of the main reasons all of us IV-P o= wners have a hell of a time getting insurance for our airplanes is because t= oo many guys "explored" the stall characteristics of their airplane (and for= many it was their last flight).   I fly another airplane that can fly = comfortably at 60 degrees AOA, and have a good bit of time as an operational= test pilot, but I will never stall my IV-P intentionally.  Or even get= close.  Like Colyn and John, I'm 120 on downwind, 110 at the base turn= and 100 on final until the runway is assured.   Unless we fly the patt= ern at 8000 feet AGL, a stall will probably be fatal for any of us.  Pl= ease don't be the next one to prove this point !

Bo= b Rickard



On Jun 16, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Colyn Case = <colyncase@earthlink.net>= wrote:

My speeds are s= imilar.   I would caution that this is test pilot stuff.   I indexed my wings also.  The result was that the plane became ambiv= alent as to which direction it was going to roll off suddenly in the stall.<= /div>
We also found that moving the stall strip which a bit down from th= e leading edge would reduce the wall but increase stall speed 10 knots.

On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:24 AM, John Hafen wrote:

Ronald:

My IVP stalls clean at 76 kts clean, and = 65 kts in landing configuration.  But I never get that slow.  Or e= ven close.  I fly downwind at 130, a very rounded base / transition to = final at 120, and approach at 110 on final, slowing down to 100 over the fen= ce.

One of the things my bird did when I was doing the in= itial testing was a 90 degree snap roll to the right when I stalled it (And = I mean Snap!).  From there, it's pretty easy to get into a spin.
<= div>
I fly a 1500 foot pattern for a little extra safety, know= ing that any stall even at that altitude would be un-recoverable.
=
Eventually, I had the wings "indexed," and ended up lowering = the trailing edge of the right wing slightly perhaps 3/16th of an inch. &nbs= p;It now stalls straight ahead and I think my stall speeds were lowered slig= htly because of that exercise.  But it is still a squirrely stall that = seems very unnatural compared to other planes I've flown.  it does this= weird yaw thing, maybe because of the small tail.

= A 4P is not your father's Olsmobile, or a Cessna.  I's not a good plane= to go slow and low for sight seeing.   And 4P's are all different. &nb= sp;Not all of them are square.  You're smart to test it out before you = buy to find a good one.

All of this said, I LOVE my= plane.  I love that it is fast.  You just have to know the machin= e to stay safe.

John Hafen
IVP 413AJ 300 ho= urs

On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:24 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrot= e:

I k= now this is a sensitive subject but I just got a flight test review back fro= m a plane that I am thinking to buy and was a bit surprised about the stall = speeds that were in there.

What kind of stall speed= (clean/50%/Dirty) do you have in your 4p? And were you ever thinking of hav= ing it improved by Vortex Generators or Wing cuff?

= Thanks -- Ronald

<= /div>
 --B_3391086423_2002607--