X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:24:04 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5020798 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:20:42 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.64; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Lh2gSQhBb88ZIUhivN2SYh3L9x5Ly4Wo66XE6uZnHA8ejHaArSMGXsd3QwsRzckB; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [216.57.118.194] (helo=[192.168.1.112]) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1QWhaI-0004Wq-FT for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:20:06 -0400 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-612--908075022 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. X-Original-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:20:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da94058128062517d483b1a371ef9fe6abe6a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.57.118.194 --Apple-Mail-612--908075022 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I don't know if I asked George what he "recommends". This whole thread came from an experiment George did on a IVP to see how = far he could get with the cooling. The owner of that plane may actually = be on the list... When he was all done he was able to climb at 140 knots/2000 fpm to fl200 = with 38" MP and 2700 rpm. with CHT < 380dF and I'm afraid I never pinned = him down on the TIT. I think I asked him or John Deakin if it was "OKAY" to do that on a = regular basis (assuming you set up your engine in a similar way) and = the person said "yes". mind you, this only takes 10 minutes so it's not a huge % of the = engine's lifetime. On Jun 14, 2011, at 10:35 PM, Bob Rickard wrote: > Colyn >=20 > 1760 total time, 1250 since bottom end rebuild, 550 since new pistons = (right before I bought the airplane). Running great, knock on wood - >=20 > What does George recommend for climb? >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jun 14, 2011, at 6:56 AM, Colyn Case = wrote: >=20 >>> " not many feel comfortable with that" >>=20 >> Most people are taught to back off the rpm to 2500 and the MP to 32" = upon reaching pattern altitude. My rationale for maintaining the high = setting is that if you are full rich, the maximum internal cylinder = pressure is less, even at 38" than it is if you are only somewhat = (75-100 ROP) at 32". ....and also being higher RPM makes the angle of = maximum pressure further after TDC. ....and I think George Braly = agrees. >>=20 >> However, I don't have my "exceeded TBO" proof of the pudding yet. >>=20 >> Bob, how many hours on your engine now? >>=20 >> Colyn >>=20 >> On Jun 13, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Bob Rickard wrote: >>=20 >>> I am a 4P TSIO 550E guy. I don't have a plenum. >>>=20 >>> I personally use the climb technique mentioned below every time I = fly, as I am usually flying long distance (> 1000nm). I takeoff full = power (38.5MAP, 43-45gph, 2700 rpm) and keep that to the level off = point, usually FL 180-220. I then run 34" MAP, 2500 RPM, and lean = 100deg LOP which usually results in 17-18 gph. I don't touch the motor = again until near the pattern and need to slow down. My motor stays = below 380 in the climb on all cylinders unless it's super hot out, at = which point I level off for a few minutes half way up, let er cool down, = then finish the climb. My climb airspeed is 165 kcas to 15,000 then 160 = the rest of the way. I could climb faster, but the key is to get air = over the motor. Climb rate varies obviously with gross weight and temp, = and is well over 1000 fpm, but it would not be if I climbed LOP. I use = this technique to get high and LOP as soon as possible, and routinely = get 4.5 hours sortie duration or longer. >>>=20 >>> I am curious about the " not many feel comfortable with that" = comment. It's what I was taught and nobody has ever mentioned it is a = "bad" technique. Open to comments as to other techniques and why they = are used. >>>=20 >>> Bob Rickard >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Colyn Case = wrote: >>>=20 >>>> The IVP will climb much faster but you have to have excellent = cooling and very high fuel flow to do it. George Braly did a seminar = on engine cooling back a few years which I think is captured here in the = archives somewhere. My main take-aways on cooling: you must have the = exhaust tunnel extensions and you must insure that cooling air is guided = around the bottom side of EVERY cylinder. The fuel flow specification = is in the TCM document but it ends up being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Put all that together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and = still be below 380 dF on the cylinders. Not many people feel = comfortable doing that though.... >>>>=20 >>>> What power settings does a velocity need to do that? >>>>=20 >>>> Colyn >>>>=20 >>>> On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Wow, this was just a great answer, not based on emotions but just = pure calculations. Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners = do not go higher then 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also = because the climb does take a long time. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now and one thing I noticed is = that the climb rate is not really that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my = old velocity easy did 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing = then to Level 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never let you = go direct, right?) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Anybody has better numbers or better climb performance tips? >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: Colyn Case >>>>> Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List >>>>> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400 >>>>> To: >>>>> Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near = future 4p owner. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Another comment on winglets. >>>>>=20 >>>>> My theory is the most important speed is your SL speed. >>>>> Suppose you are flying 1350 nautical miles. >>>>> Westbound you have a 40 knot headwind at 5000 increasing to 100 = knots at fl200. >>>>> Eastbound let's say you get a 40 knot tailwind at fl200. = (Doesn't it usually work out that way?) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Someone offers you mod A that gives you 10 knots at 5000 or mod B = that gives you 10 knots at fl200. >>>>> ...and let's say your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodified. >>>>>=20 >>>>> mod A gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvement which you enjoy = for 6.9 hours >>>>> mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2% improvement which you enjoy = for 4.2 hours >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> So even if the winglets delivered performance up high they don't = seem like a very good deal. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Colyn >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hello guys. >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> I like to introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former = Cirrus >>>>>>> SR22 (1100 hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this = plane) >>>>>>> (total 1400 hours). >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> I am a future Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, = so if >>>>>>> you know someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked = at a few >>>>>>> Lancair 4p already. >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> Now about the winglets (my first question); >>>>>>> Some planes I looked at had their winglets, some not. All those = that did not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had = did told me it works great, >>>>>>> more stability etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it = produces >>>>>>> more stability at higher altitude. >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> But=85even the big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add = anything but more >>>>>>> drag...thus less speed. >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> I have no experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my = question to you >>>>>>> guys is, do you have any experience telling you that it does = work? (this >>>>>>> is more for pilots who had both so they can tell the difference) >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> Thanks -- Ronald Stevens >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail-612--908075022 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 I = don't know if I asked George what he "recommends".
This whole thread = came from an experiment George did on a IVP to see how far he could get = with the cooling.  The owner of that plane may actually be on the = list...
When he was all done he was able to climb at 140 = knots/2000 fpm to fl200 with 38" MP and 2700 rpm. with CHT < 380dF = and I'm afraid I never pinned him down on the TIT.
I think I = asked him or John Deakin if it was "OKAY" to do that on a regular basis = (assuming you set up your engine in a similar way)  and the person = said "yes".

mind you, this only takes 10 = minutes so it's not a huge % of the engine's = lifetime.


On Jun 14, 2011, at = 10:35 PM, Bob Rickard wrote:

Colyn

1760 total time, = 1250 since bottom end rebuild, 550 since new pistons (right before I = bought the airplane).  Running great, knock on wood = -

What does George recommend for = climb?

Bob



On Jun 14, = 2011, at 6:56 AM, Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net> = wrote:

" not many feel comfortable = with that"

Most people are taught to back = off the rpm to 2500 and the MP to 32" upon reaching pattern altitude. =    My rationale for maintaining the high setting is that if = you are full rich, the maximum internal cylinder pressure is less, even = at 38" than it is if you are only somewhat (75-100 ROP) at 32".   = ....and also being higher RPM makes the angle of maximum pressure = further after TDC.    ....and I think George Braly = agrees.

However, I don't have my "exceeded TBO" proof = of the pudding yet.

Bob, how many hours on your = engine now?

Colyn

On = Jun 13, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Bob Rickard wrote:

I am a 4P TSIO 550E guy.  I don't have a = plenum.

I personally use the climb technique = mentioned below every time I fly, as I am usually flying long distance = (> 1000nm).  I takeoff full power (38.5MAP, 43-45gph, 2700 rpm) = and keep that to the level off point, usually FL 180-220.  I then = run 34" MAP, 2500 RPM, and lean 100deg LOP which usually results in = 17-18 gph.  I don't touch the motor again until near the pattern = and need to slow down.  My motor stays below 380 in the climb on = all cylinders unless it's super hot out, at which point I level off for = a few minutes half way up, let er cool down, then finish the climb. =  My climb airspeed is 165 kcas to 15,000 then 160 the rest of the = way.  I could climb faster, but the key is to get air over the = motor.  Climb rate varies obviously with gross weight and temp, and = is well over 1000 fpm, but it would not be if I climbed LOP.  I use = this technique to get high and LOP as soon as possible, and routinely = get 4.5 hours sortie duration or longer.

I am = curious about the " not many feel comfortable with that" comment. =  It's what I was taught and nobody has ever mentioned it is a "bad" = technique.  Open to comments as to other techniques and why they = are used.

Bob Rickard


On Jun 13, = 2011, at 11:48 AM, Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net> = wrote:

The IVP = will climb much faster but you have to have excellent cooling and very = high fuel flow to do it.    George Braly did a seminar on = engine cooling back a few years which I think is captured here in the = archives somewhere.   My main take-aways on cooling:   you = must have the exhaust tunnel extensions and you must insure that cooling = air is guided around the bottom side of EVERY cylinder.    The = fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it ends up being 43+ = gph at 38"/2700rpm.   

Put all that = together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still be below 380 = dF on the cylinders.    Not many people feel comfortable doing = that though....

What power settings does a = velocity need to do = that?

Colyn

On Jun 13, = 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

Wow, this was just a = great answer, not based on emotions but just pure calculations. Like to = add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do not go higher then = 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the climb does = take a long time.

I have sit in a few Lancair = 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that the climb rate is not really = that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old velocity easy did 1800-2000fpm = (but at 145 IAS).

Now I understand you guys go = faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then to Level 250 take about 23 min. = (more or less, they never let you go direct, = right?)

Anybody has better numbers or better = climb performance tips?

From: = Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List = <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 = -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Winglets? And = introducing myself as a very near future 4p = owner.

On Jun = 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

Hello = guys.
 
I like to = introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus
SR22 (1100 = hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane)
(total 1400 hours).
 
I am a future = Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if
you know = someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few
Lancair 4p already.
 
Now about the = winglets (my first question);
Some planes I = looked at had their winglets, some not. All those that did not had one told me = it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me it works = great,
more stability = etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it produces
more stability = at higher altitude.
 
But=85even the = big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but more
drag...thus = less speed.
 
I have no = experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to you
guys is, do = you have any experience telling you that it does work? (this
is more for = pilots who had both so they can tell the difference)
 
Thanks -- = Ronald = Stevens
 
<= /div>
<glasair new pnt.jpg><AC = home after painting = 001.jpg>

=

<= br>
= --Apple-Mail-612--908075022--