X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:06:28 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from qmta15.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.228] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5020773 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:59:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.59.228; envelope-from=j.hafen@comcast.net Received: from omta19.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.98]) by qmta15.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id w3xc1g00427AodY5F3yYz8; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 03:58:32 +0000 Received: from [192.168.128.152] ([71.39.4.91]) by omta19.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id w3yL1g00T1xpSLv3f3yQy0; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 03:58:30 +0000 From: John Hafen Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-13--909382635 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. X-Original-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 20:58:19 -0700 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <8593BF05-D3BB-45DD-8F21-7F3083B0D0CF@comcast.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) --Apple-Mail-13--909382635 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 How many rear engine certificated aircraft, other than the Cessna 337 = can you name? On Jun 14, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Colyn Case wrote: I consider anything over 380 unacceptable. On my plane, I am TIT limited when LOP. ...and I won't go beyond 1650. This is perhaps the most compelling reason to get high compression = pistons. You should see reduced EGT by 100 dF at the same power = setting. On Jun 14, 2011, at 7:56 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: > Well, the velocity does climb fast with a high fuel flow (I did = however never put it higher as MP=3D36) and forgot the fuel flow. The = plenum on the velocity did kept it under 400 (and being under 400 is = good on a velocity, just bad for the engine, so you must count on a = shorter life for the cylinders). >=20 > Cruising I was usually under 400 (but not by much), and I mixed = ROP/LOP flights (just what I felt like doing, sometimes wanted to feel = that I was going fast, and sometimes just saving money going the LOP = route) >=20 > The most of my heating problems were with the turbo's, LOP was hard on = them, the temps were then just under 1700 (1750 is max) and I never felt = comfortable with this, but when I was going ROP the temps on the turbo's = were lower (1650-1680) >=20 > -- Ronald >=20 > From: Colyn Case > Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:48:09 -0400 > To: > Subject: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near = future 4p owner. >=20 > The IVP will climb much faster but you have to have excellent cooling = and very high fuel flow to do it. George Braly did a seminar on = engine cooling back a few years which I think is captured here in the = archives somewhere. My main take-aways on cooling: you must have the = exhaust tunnel extensions and you must insure that cooling air is guided = around the bottom side of EVERY cylinder. The fuel flow specification = is in the TCM document but it ends up being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm. =20 >=20 > Put all that together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and = still be below 380 dF on the cylinders. Not many people feel = comfortable doing that though.... >=20 > What power settings does a velocity need to do that? >=20 > Colyn >=20 > On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >=20 >> Wow, this was just a great answer, not based on emotions but just = pure calculations. Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners = do not go higher then 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also = because the climb does take a long time. >>=20 >> I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that = the climb rate is not really that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old = velocity easy did 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS). >>=20 >> Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then = to Level 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never let you go = direct, right?) >>=20 >> Anybody has better numbers or better climb performance tips? >>=20 >> From: Colyn Case >> Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List >> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400 >> To: >> Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future = 4p owner. >>=20 >> Another comment on winglets. >>=20 >> My theory is the most important speed is your SL speed. >> Suppose you are flying 1350 nautical miles. >> Westbound you have a 40 knot headwind at 5000 increasing to 100 knots = at fl200. >> Eastbound let's say you get a 40 knot tailwind at fl200. (Doesn't = it usually work out that way?) >>=20 >> Someone offers you mod A that gives you 10 knots at 5000 or mod B = that gives you 10 knots at fl200. >> ...and let's say your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodified. >>=20 >> mod A gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvement which you enjoy for = 6.9 hours >> mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2% improvement which you enjoy for = 4.2 hours >>=20 >>=20 >> So even if the winglets delivered performance up high they don't seem = like a very good deal. >>=20 >> Colyn >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hello guys. >>>> =20 >>>> I like to introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former = Cirrus >>>> SR22 (1100 hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this = plane) >>>> (total 1400 hours). >>>> =20 >>>> I am a future Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so = if >>>> you know someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a = few >>>> Lancair 4p already. >>>> =20 >>>> Now about the winglets (my first question); >>>> Some planes I looked at had their winglets, some not. All those = that did not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had = did told me it works great, >>>> more stability etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it = produces >>>> more stability at higher altitude. >>>> =20 >>>> But=85even the big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything = but more >>>> drag...thus less speed. >>>> =20 >>>> I have no experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question = to you >>>> guys is, do you have any experience telling you that it does work? = (this >>>> is more for pilots who had both so they can tell the difference) >>>> =20 >>>> Thanks -- Ronald Stevens >>>=20 >>> =20 >>> >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-13--909382635 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 How = many rear engine certificated aircraft, other than the Cessna 337 can = you = name?




On = Jun 14, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Colyn Case wrote:

I = consider anything over 380 unacceptable.
On my plane, I am TIT = limited when LOP.   ...and I won't go beyond 1650.
This = is perhaps the most compelling reason to get high compression pistons. =  You should see reduced EGT by 100 dF at the same power = setting.

On Jun 14, 2011, at 7:56 AM, RONALD = STEVENS wrote:

Well, the = velocity does climb fast with a high fuel flow (I did however never put = it higher as MP=3D36) and forgot the fuel flow. The plenum on the = velocity did kept it under 400 (and being under 400 is good on a = velocity, just bad for the engine, so you must count on a shorter life = for the cylinders).

Cruising I was usually = under 400 (but not by much), and I mixed ROP/LOP flights (just what I = felt like doing, sometimes wanted to feel that I was going fast, and = sometimes just saving money going the LOP = route)

The most of my heating problems were = with the turbo's, LOP was hard on them, the temps were then just under = 1700 (1750 is max) and I never felt comfortable with this, but when I = was going ROP the temps on the turbo's were lower = (1650-1680)

-- Ronald

From: = Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List = <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:48:09 = -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Winglets? And = introducing myself as a very near future 4p = owner.

The = IVP will climb much faster but you have to have excellent cooling and = very high fuel flow to do it.    George Braly did a seminar on = engine cooling back a few years which I think is captured here in the = archives somewhere.   My main take-aways on cooling:   you = must have the exhaust tunnel extensions and you must insure that cooling = air is guided around the bottom side of EVERY cylinder.    The = fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it ends up being 43+ = gph at 38"/2700rpm.   

Put all that = together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still be below 380 = dF on the cylinders.    Not many people feel comfortable doing = that though....

What power settings does a = velocity need to do = that?

Colyn

On Jun 13, = 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

Wow, this was just a = great answer, not based on emotions but just pure calculations. Like to = add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do not go higher then = 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the climb does = take a long time.

I have sit in a few Lancair = 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that the climb rate is not really = that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old velocity easy did 1800-2000fpm = (but at 145 IAS).

Now I understand you guys go = faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then to Level 250 take about 23 min. = (more or less, they never let you go direct, = right?)

Anybody has better numbers or better = climb performance tips?

From: = Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List = <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 = -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Winglets? And = introducing myself as a very near future 4p = owner.

On Jun = 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

Hello = guys.
 
I like to = introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus
SR22 (1100 = hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane)
(total 1400 hours).
 
I am a future = Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if
you know = someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few
Lancair 4p already.
 
Now about the = winglets (my first question);
Some planes I = looked at had their winglets, some not. All those that did not had one told me = it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me it works = great,
more stability = etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it produces
more stability = at higher altitude.
 
But=85even the = big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but more
drag...thus = less speed.
 
I have no = experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to you
guys is, do = you have any experience telling you that it does work? (this
is more for = pilots who had both so they can tell the difference)
 
Thanks -- = Ronald = Stevens
 
<= /div>
<glasair new pnt.jpg><AC = home after painting = 001.jpg>




= --Apple-Mail-13--909382635--