X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:35:28 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.100.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5020480 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:18:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.100.31; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from imo-da04.mx.aol.com (imo-da04.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.202]) by imr-ma05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p5ELHpkq012732 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:17:51 -0400 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-da04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.1174.1dce67d (43994) for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from magic-m27.mail.aol.com (magic-m27.mail.aol.com [172.20.22.200]) by cia-dd06.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIADD063-abda4df7cffbd9; Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:17:47 -0400 From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <69766.22a112f4.3b2929fb@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:17:47 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: N numbers X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_69766.22a112f4.3b2929fb_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-AOL-IP: 24.15.17.119 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Sky2high@aol.com --part1_69766.22a112f4.3b2929fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Jim, =20 I'm with ya............ Where do we look for a definition of the =20 criteria: "maximum cruising speed?" If I apply takeoff power in level fl= ight I=20 will exceed 180 KCAS but I am sure not "cruising" there. If I use the=20 definition of "cruise" as a level flight speed where fuel is used efficie= ntly. =20 Then aren't I at less than 75% power (no matter how I got there and whate= ver=20 that means if full power is unknown) and operating LOP? That certainly= =20 puts me below 180 KCAS. =20 =20 Can 100% "power" be defined as "best power (say 150 degrees ROP) at some= =20 MSL at a certain fuel consumption, rpm and prop efficiency yielding a KCA= S -=20 then translated to Sea Level equivalence? That would be so I could=20 compute 75% power with adjustments for altitude and temp along with KCAS= for=20 those conditions. Then I would know what size the N-numbers should be. =20 In other words, is there a national FAA acceptable definition of Vc? =20 Scott AKA Grayhawk =20 =20 In a message dated 6/14/2011 11:37:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 jimauman@comcast.net writes: =20 _http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=3Decfr&sid=3D70147eedbfce= 0d8e20 b5db33242f19c4&rgn=3Ddiv8&view=3Dtext&node=3D14:1.0.1.3.22.3.363.6&idno=3D= 14_=20 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=3Decfr&sid=3D70147eedbfce= 0d8e20b5db33 242f19c4&rgn=3Ddiv8&view=3Dtext&node=3D14:1.0.1.3.22.3.363.6&idno=3D14) = =20 1 Go to _www.faa.gov_ (http://www.faa.gov/) =20 2 Click on Regulations and Policies Tab=20 3 Click on FAA Regulations=20 4 Click on Current Federal Regulations=20 5 Click on 1-59=20 6 Click on 45.1-45.33=20 7 Click on 45.29=20 8 Look at (b) 1 (ii) =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A63 inches hi= gh may be=20 displayed=E2=80=A6when the maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does no= t exceed 180=20 knots CAS;=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =20 Without a Letter from your FSDO for your specific N number, you are=20 clearly directed by the text. Call or visit your FSDO or MIDO. =20 Remember, your program letter with your application, if you use a=20 preformatted one, says that you marked your aircraft I/A/W FAR 45.=20 Operating Limitation Number 1, issued on day of Certification, states tha= t=20 you are to comply with all of FAR 91. FAR 91.9 (c) says that you must= be=20 ID=E2=80=99d Via =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dpart 45 of this chapter=E2=80=9D. Thi= s is further defined again=20 around Operating Limit (13) =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D This aircraft must contai= n the placards,=20 markings, etc., as required by =C2=A791.9=E2=80=9D.=20 So, unless you have an individual Letter, in your possession, to deviate= =20 from the included texts, I=E2=80=99d say the text is pretty clear.=20 You can do anything with a Clearance. Just because someone else is=20 running afoul of their specific Operating Limits, and the FAR, does not= make it=20 OK for us to repeat their intention. =20 Bottom line is that you=E2=80=99ve got to have a separate letter, or a st= atement=20 built into your Operating Limits, to not violate all of the above. This= =20 subject is not new nor has it been changed in the last 20 years. Be care= ful=20 out there.=20 Jim=20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Ed Gray [mailto:egraylaw@swbell.net]=20 Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 6:50 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: N numbers My understanding was numbers should be one foot high if plane exceeds 200= =20 knots, but I have seen many 360s with 3 inch numbers, and am sure these= are=20 200 knot planes. I plan on a little over 200 knots, what should I do?=20 Ed Gray, Dallas L2 building --part1_69766.22a112f4.3b2929fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
Jim,
 
I'm with ya............  Where do we look for a definition= of the=20 criteria: "maximum cruising speed?"  If I apply takeoff power in leve= l=20 flight I will exceed 180 KCAS but I am sure not "cruising" there.  If= I use=20 the definition of "cruise" as a level flight speed where fuel is=20 used efficiently.  Then aren't I at less than 75% power (no matt= er how=20 I got there and whatever that means if full power is unknown) and operatin= g=20 LOP?  That certainly puts me below 180 KCAS. 
 
Can 100% "power" be defined as "best power (say 150 degrees ROP)= at=20 some MSL at a certain fuel consumption, rpm and prop efficiency yielding= a=20 KCAS - then translated to Sea Level equivalence?  That would be= so I=20 could compute 75% power with adjustments for altitude and temp along with= KCAS=20 for those conditions.  Then I would know what size the N-numbers shou= ld=20 be.
 
In other words, is there a national FAA acceptable definition of= =20 Vc?
 
Scott AKA Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 6/14/2011 11:37:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 jimauman@comcast.net writes:

ht= tp://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=3Decfr&sid=3D70147eedbfc= e0d8e20b5db33242f19c4&rgn=3Ddiv8&view=3Dtext&node=3D14:1.0.1.3= .22.3.363.6&idno=3D14

 

1    &nbs= p;            =    =20 G= o to w= ww.faa.gov

2    &nbs= p;            =    =20 C= lick on Regulations=20 and Policies Tab

3    &nbs= p;            =    =20 C= lick on FAA=20 Regulations

4    &nbs= p;            =    =20 C= lick on Current=20 Federal Regulations

5    &nbs= p;            =    =20 C= lick on=20 1-59

6    &nbs= p;            =    =20 C= lick on=20 45.1-45.33

7    &nbs= p;            =    =20 C= lick on=20 45.29

8    &nbs= p;            =    =20 L= ook at (b) 1=20 (ii)   =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A63 inches high may be di= splayed=E2=80=A6when the=20 maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS;=E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D =20

 

Without a Let= ter from=20 your FSDO for your specific N number, you are clearly directed by the=20 text.  Call or visit your FSDO or MIDO. =20

 

Remember, you= r=20 program letter with your application, if you use a preformatted one, say= s that=20 you marked your aircraft I/A/W FAR 45.

 

Operating Lim= itation=20 Number 1, issued on day of Certification, states that you are to comply= with=20 all of FAR 91.   FAR 91.9 (c) says that you must be ID=E2=80= =99d Via =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dpart=20 45 of this chapter=E2=80=9D.  This is further defined again around= Operating=20 Limit (13) =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D This=20 aircraft must contain the placards, markings, etc., as required by=20 =C2=A791.9=E2=80=9D.

 

So, unless yo= u have=20 an individual Letter, in your possession, to deviate from the included= texts,=20 I=E2=80=99d say the text is pretty clear.

 

You can do an= ything=20 with a Clearance.  Just because someone else is running afoul of th= eir=20 specific Operating Limits, and the FAR, does not make it OK for us to re= peat=20 their intention.

 

Bottom line= is that=20 you=E2=80=99ve got to have a separate letter, or a statement built into= your Operating=20 Limits, to not violate all of the above.  This subject is not new= nor has=20 it been changed in the last 20 years.  Be careful out=20 there.

 

Jim

 

 

 

From: Ed Gray=20 [mailto:egraylaw@swbell.net]
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subjec= t: N=20 numbers

 

My understanding was numbers should be one foot= high=20 if plane exceeds 200 knots, but I have seen many 360s with 3 inch number= s, and=20 am sure these are 200 knot planes.  I plan on a little over 200 kno= ts,=20 what should I do?

Ed Gray, Dallas L2=20 building

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