X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:56:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [198.64.152.110] (HELO sdc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5019621 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Jun 2011 22:56:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=198.64.152.110; envelope-from=ronald@sdc.com Received: from [192.168.1.109] [68.202.59.0] by sdc.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id 9a4c000667be3262; Mon, 13 Jun 2011 22:47:19 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 X-Original-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 22:56:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. From: RONALD STEVENS X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3390850582_192654" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3390850582_192654 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Well, the velocity does climb fast with a high fuel flow (I did however never put it higher as MP=3D36) and forgot the fuel flow. The plenum on the velocity did kept it under 400 (and being under 400 is good on a velocity, just bad for the engine, so you must count on a shorter life for the cylinders). Cruising I was usually under 400 (but not by much), and I mixed ROP/LOP flights (just what I felt like doing, sometimes wanted to feel that I was going fast, and sometimes just saving money going the LOP route) The most of my heating problems were with the turbo's, LOP was hard on them= , the temps were then just under 1700 (1750 is max) and I never felt comfortable with this, but when I was going ROP the temps on the turbo's were lower (1650-1680) -- Ronald From: Colyn Case Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:48:09 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. The IVP will climb much faster but you have to have excellent cooling and very high fuel flow to do it. George Braly did a seminar on engine cooling back a few years which I think is captured here in the archives somewhere. My main take-aways on cooling: you must have the exhaust tunnel extensions and you must insure that cooling air is guided around the bottom side of EVERY cylinder. The fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it ends up being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm. Put all that together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still be below 380 dF on the cylinders. Not many people feel comfortable doing that though.... What power settings does a velocity need to do that? Colyn On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: > Wow, this was just a great answer, not based on emotions but just pure > calculations. Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do not= go > higher then 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the = climb > does take a long time. >=20 > I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that the = climb > rate is not really that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old velocity eas= y did > 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS). >=20 > Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then to Le= vel > 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never let you go direct, right= ?) >=20 > Anybody has better numbers or better climb performance tips? >=20 > From: Colyn Case > Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400 > To: > Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p > owner. >=20 > Another comment on winglets. >=20 > My theory is the most important speed is your SL speed. > Suppose you are flying 1350 nautical miles. > Westbound you have a 40 knot headwind at 5000 increasing to 100 knots at > fl200. > Eastbound let's say you get a 40 knot tailwind at fl200. (Doesn't it us= ually > work out that way?) >=20 > Someone offers you mod A that gives you 10 knots at 5000 or mod B that gi= ves > you 10 knots at fl200. > ...and let's say your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodified. >=20 > mod A gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvement which you enjoy for 6.9 h= ours > mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2% improvement which you enjoy for 4.2 h= ours >=20 >=20 > So even if the winglets delivered performance up high they don't seem lik= e a > very good deal. >=20 > Colyn >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>=20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Hello guys. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> I like to introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus >>> =20 >>> SR22 (1100 hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane) >>> =20 >>> (total 1400 hours). >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> I am a future Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if >>> =20 >>> you know someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few >>> =20 >>> Lancair 4p already. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Now about the winglets (my first question); >>> =20 >>> Some planes I looked at had their winglets, some not. All those that di= d not >>> had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me i= t >>> works great, >>> =20 >>> more stability etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it produces >>> =20 >>> more stability at higher altitude. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> But=8Aeven the big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but mor= e >>> =20 >>> drag...thus less speed. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> I have no experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to yo= u >>> =20 >>> guys is, do you have any experience telling you that it does work? (thi= s >>> =20 >>> is more for pilots who had both so they can tell the difference) >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Thanks -- Ronald Stevens >> =20 >> >=20 --B_3390850582_192654 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Well, the velocity does clim= b fast with a high fuel flow (I did however never put it higher as MP=3D36) an= d forgot the fuel flow. The plenum on the velocity did kept it under 400 (an= d being under 400 is good on a velocity, just bad for the engine, so you mus= t count on a shorter life for the cylinders).

Cruis= ing I was usually under 400 (but not by much), and I mixed ROP/LOP flights (= just what I felt like doing, sometimes wanted to feel that I was going fast,= and sometimes just saving money going the LOP route)

The most of my heating problems were with the turbo's, LOP was hard on th= em, the temps were then just under 1700 (1750 is max) and I never felt comfo= rtable with this, but when I was going ROP the temps on the turbo's were low= er (1650-1680)

-- Ronald

From: Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
= Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:48:09 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline= .net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Wi= nglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner.

The IVP will climb much faster but= you have to have excellent cooling and very high fuel flow to do it.  =  George Braly did a seminar on engine cooling back a few years which I= think is captured here in the archives somewhere.   My main take-aways= on cooling:   you must have the exhaust tunnel extensions and you must= insure that cooling air is guided around the bottom side of EVERY cylinder.=    The fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it ends= up being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm.   

Put all th= at together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still be below 380 d= F on the cylinders.    Not many people feel comfortable doing that= though....

What power settings does a velocity nee= d to do that?

Colyn

On Jun = 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

Wow, this was = just a great answer, not based on emotions but just pure calculations. Like = to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do not go higher then 18000f= t (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the climb does take a lon= g time.

I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now and on= e thing I noticed is that the climb rate is not really that great. (1000-140= 0 fpm), while my old velocity easy did 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS).
<= div>
Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) but cli= mbing then to Level 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never let you= go direct, right?)

Anybody has better numbers or b= etter climb performance tips?

From: Colyn Case <coly= ncase@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lanc= aironline.net>
Date: Sun, 1= 2 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400
To: <= lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing = myself as a very near future 4p owner.

Another comment on winglets.

My theory = is the most important speed is your SL speed.
Suppose you are flyi= ng 1350 nautical miles.
Westbound you have a 40 knot headwind at 5= 000 increasing to 100 knots at fl200.
Eastbound let's say you get = a 40 knot tailwind at fl200.   (Doesn't it usually work out that way?)<= /div>

Someone offers you mod A that gives you 10 knots at= 5000 or mod B that gives you 10 knots at fl200.
...and let's say = your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodified.

mod A= gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvement which you enjoy for 6.9 hours
mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2% improvement which you enjoy for 4= .2 hours


So even if the winglets del= ivered performance up high they don't seem like a very good deal.
=
Colyn


On Jun 7, 2011, a= t 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

=
Hello guys.
 
I like to introduce= myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus
SR22 (1100 hours) a= nd Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane)
(total 1400 hours).
 
I am a future Lanca= ir 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if
you know someone wh= o wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few
Lancair 4p already.
 
Now about the wingl= ets (my first question);
Some planes I looke= d at had their winglets, some not. All those that did not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me it works great,
more stability etc,= even the CAFE report is telling that it produces
more stability at h= igher altitude.
 
But…even the = big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but more
drag...thus less speed.
 
I have no experienc= e whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to you
guys is, do you hav= e any experience telling you that it does work? (this
is more for pilots = who had both so they can tell the difference)
 
Thanks -- Ronald Stevens
 
=
<glasair new pnt.jpg><AC home = after painting 001.jpg>


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