X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:56:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [198.64.152.110] (HELO sdc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5019624 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:08:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=198.64.152.110; envelope-from=ronald@sdc.com Received: from [192.168.1.109] [68.202.59.0] by sdc.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id 2a76000668483300; Mon, 13 Jun 2011 22:59:16 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 X-Original-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:08:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. From: RONALD STEVENS X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3390851298_277504" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3390851298_277504 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob Thanks for sharing this, what I am wondering about is that you are able to have full power until the flight levels while the TSIO 550E has a critical altitude at 18000ft and then it should go down, right? And then running 34M= P with 2500 rpm is about 80-85%? (90% at 2700rpm) at that altitude is really remarkable, as I would think the engine would be glowing red hot (so you must have a great airflow under the cowling. What I am also wondering about is the climb speed forward, you mention that you use 165 the first 16000ft and then go back to 160 IAS, should this not be the other way around? (just trying to educate myself lol) Thanks -- Ronald From: Bob Rickard Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:29:29 -0400 To: Subject: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. I am a 4P TSIO 550E guy. I don't have a plenum. I personally use the climb technique mentioned below every time I fly, as I am usually flying long distance (> 1000nm). I takeoff full power (38.5MAP, 43-45gph, 2700 rpm) and keep that to the level off point, usually FL 180-220. I then run 34" MAP, 2500 RPM, and lean 100deg LOP which usually results in 17-18 gph. I don't touch the motor again until near the pattern and need to slow down. My motor stays below 380 in the climb on all cylinders unless it's super hot out, at which point I level off for a few minutes half way up, let er cool down, then finish the climb. My climb airspeed is 165 kcas to 15,000 then 160 the rest of the way. I could climb faster, but the key is to get air over the motor. Climb rate varies obviously with gross weight and temp, and is well over 1000 fpm, but it would not be if I climbed LOP. I use this technique to get high and LOP as soon as possible, and routinely get 4.5 hours sortie duration or longer. I am curious about the " not many feel comfortable with that" comment. It'= s what I was taught and nobody has ever mentioned it is a "bad" technique. Open to comments as to other techniques and why they are used. Bob Rickard On Jun 13, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Colyn Case wrote: > The IVP will climb much faster but you have to have excellent cooling and= very > high fuel flow to do it. George Braly did a seminar on engine cooling = back > a few years which I think is captured here in the archives somewhere. M= y > main take-aways on cooling: you must have the exhaust tunnel extensions= and > you must insure that cooling air is guided around the bottom side of EVER= Y > cylinder. The fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it en= ds up > being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm. >=20 > Put all that together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still b= e > below 380 dF on the cylinders. Not many people feel comfortable doing = that > though.... >=20 > What power settings does a velocity need to do that? >=20 > Colyn >=20 > On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >=20 >> Wow, this was just a great answer, not based on emotions but just pure >> calculations. Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do no= t go >> higher then 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the >> climb does take a long time. >>=20 >> I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that the >> climb rate is not really that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old veloc= ity >> easy did 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS). >>=20 >> Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then to L= evel >> 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never let you go direct, righ= t?) >>=20 >> Anybody has better numbers or better climb performance tips? >>=20 >> From: Colyn Case < colyncase@earthlink= .net> >> Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List < >> lml@lancaironline.net> >> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400 >> To: < lml@lancaironline.net> >> Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4= p >> owner. >>=20 >> Another comment on winglets. >>=20 >> My theory is the most important speed is your SL speed. >> Suppose you are flying 1350 nautical miles. >> Westbound you have a 40 knot headwind at 5000 increasing to 100 knots at >> fl200. >> Eastbound let's say you get a 40 knot tailwind at fl200. (Doesn't it >> usually work out that way?) >>=20 >> Someone offers you mod A that gives you 10 knots at 5000 or mod B that g= ives >> you 10 knots at fl200. >> ...and let's say your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodified. >>=20 >> mod A gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvement which you enjoy for 6.9 = hours >> mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2% improvement which you enjoy for 4.2 = hours >>=20 >>=20 >> So even if the winglets delivered performance up high they don't seem li= ke a >> very good deal. >>=20 >> Colyn >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> Hello guys. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> I like to introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus >>>> =20 >>>> SR22 (1100 hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane) >>>> =20 >>>> (total 1400 hours). >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> I am a future Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if >>>> =20 >>>> you know someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a fe= w >>>> =20 >>>> Lancair 4p already. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> Now about the winglets (my first question); >>>> =20 >>>> Some planes I looked at had their winglets, some not. All those that d= id >>>> not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told= me >>>> it works great, >>>> =20 >>>> more stability etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it produces >>>> =20 >>>> more stability at higher altitude. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> But=8Aeven the big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but mo= re >>>> =20 >>>> drag...thus less speed. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> I have no experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to y= ou >>>> =20 >>>> guys is, do you have any experience telling you that it does work? (th= is >>>> =20 >>>> is more for pilots who had both so they can tell the difference) >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> Thanks -- Ronald Stevens >>> =20 >>> >>=20 >=20 --B_3390851298_277504 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob

<= div>Thanks for sharing this, what I am wondering about is that you are able = to have full power until the flight levels while the TSIO 550E has a critica= l altitude at 18000ft and then it should go down, right? And then running 34= MP with 2500 rpm is about 80-85%? (90% at 2700rpm) at that altitude is reall= y remarkable, as I would think the engine would be glowing red hot (so you m= ust have a great airflow under the cowling.

What I = am also wondering about is the climb speed forward, you mention that you use= 165 the first 16000ft and then go back to 160 IAS, should this not be the o= ther way around? (just trying to educate myself lol)

Thanks -- Ronald

From: Bob Rickard <r.rickard@rcgi= nc-us.com>
Reply-To: Lancai= r Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.= net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011= 16:29:29 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself= as a very near future 4p owner.

I am a 4P TSIO 550E guy.  I don't have a plenum.

I personally use the climb technique mentioned below every = time I fly, as I am usually flying long distance (> 1000nm).  I take= off full power (38.5MAP, 43-45gph, 2700 rpm) and keep that to the level off = point, usually FL 180-220.  I then run 34" MAP, 2500 RPM, and lean 100d= eg LOP which usually results in 17-18 gph.  I don't touch the motor aga= in until near the pattern and need to slow down.  My motor stays below = 380 in the climb on all cylinders unless it's super hot out, at which point = I level off for a few minutes half way up, let er cool down, then finish the= climb.  My climb airspeed is 165 kcas to 15,000 then 160 the rest of t= he way.  I could climb faster, but the key is to get air over the motor= .  Climb rate varies obviously with gross weight and temp, and is well = over 1000 fpm, but it would not be if I climbed LOP.  I use this techni= que to get high and LOP as soon as possible, and routinely get 4.5 hours sor= tie duration or longer.

I am curious about the " no= t many feel comfortable with that" comment.  It's what I was taught and= nobody has ever mentioned it is a "bad" technique.  Open to comments a= s to other techniques and why they are used.

Bob Rickard

On Jun 13, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net> wrote:
The IVP will climb much faste= r but you have to have excellent cooling and very high fuel flow to do it. &= nbsp;  George Braly did a seminar on engine cooling back a few years wh= ich I think is captured here in the archives somewhere.   My main take-= aways on cooling:   you must have the exhaust tunnel extensions and you= must insure that cooling air is guided around the bottom side of EVERY cyli= nder.    The fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it= ends up being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm.   

Put a= ll that together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still be below = 380 dF on the cylinders.    Not many people feel comfortable doing= that though....

What power settings does a velocit= y need to do that?

Colyn

On= Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:

Wow, this= was just a great answer, not based on emotions but just pure calculations. = Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do not go higher then 1= 8000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the climb does take = a long time.

I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now a= nd one thing I noticed is that the climb rate is not really that great. (100= 0-1400 fpm), while my old velocity easy did 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS).

Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) bu= t climbing then to Level 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never le= t you go direct, right?)

Anybody has better numbers= or better climb performance tips?

From: Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>= ;
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List &= lt;lml@lancaironline.net>
Dat= e: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very= near future 4p owner.

On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONAL= D STEVENS wrote:

Hello guys.
 
I like to introduce= myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus
SR22 (1100 hours) a= nd Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane)
(total 1400 hours).
 
I am a future Lanca= ir 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if
you know someone wh= o wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few
Lancair 4p already.
 
Now about the wingl= ets (my first question);
Some planes I looke= d at had their winglets, some not. All those that did not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me it works great,
more stability etc,= even the CAFE report is telling that it produces
more stability at h= igher altitude.
 
But…even the = big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but more
drag...thus less speed.
 
I have no experienc= e whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to you
guys is, do you hav= e any experience telling you that it does work? (this
is more for pilots = who had both so they can tell the difference)
 
Thanks -- Ronald Stevens
 
=
<glasair new pnt.jpg><AC home = after painting 001.jpg>


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