Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #69971
From: Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Gear Down...INOP
Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 07:54:08 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Wolfgang,
I believe the exact words were:
I see the centering springs but what about the added spring, eyelet and ball? Where does that fit into the schematic?”
And
Still, that port with the added spring, I believe it's a return port for excess hydraulic fluid that can be used with a three port dump valve.
. . . but why the spring if it's plugged anyway?”
I interpreted that to mean you did not understand the purpose of the ball and spring and were unsure of the purpose of the third port that houses them.  Please correct me if I misunderstood your questions.
I support only logic.  I base my statements on repeatable, demonstrated facts and sound logic.  I then apply them to reported observations to help explain anomalies and trouble shoot systems.  I am quite willing to discuss any aspects of hydraulics with you, but no technical counter arguments have been forthcoming.
Without intending any disrespect, observations in the absence of key data can easily lead to incorrect hypotheses.  For example, the early theories about how pressure would migrate from the high side to the low side “due to low temperatures”; or assuming the state of pressure switches without actually having any way to monitor them; or assuming 70g vibration levels at the pump; or not knowing the exact configuration of a pump that is behaving oddly.  Without good data, it is inevitable that incorrect conclusions will be drawn, no matter how good the intentions of the observer.
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
“passionate not pationate”
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:21 AM, Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net> wrote:
Chris, you are clearly pationate about what you do but I still say here you're not the only, let alone the final answer.
 
I think it improper and do not appreciate you make assumptions on what others have experienced without first hand knowledge (Lorn) and what I have or not said in the past (You had asked what their purpose was.)
 
As I have said before, you go to great lengths to support yourself but give only passing support to the "other side". This is "fair and balanced" ?
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Gear Down...INOP

Wolfgang,
The concept I have trying to describe here and in my hydraulics write-up is nothing new.  It is however difficult, if not impossible, to identify without instrumentation.  Most often this phenomenon simply causes what is perceived as a hesitation during gear extension.  Sort of a quick Start-Stop-Start with the gear continuing all the way down.  It becomes quite clear what is happening if one looks at the system pressures when gear-down is selected.  Analog gauges are best for catching the interaction.  What you�ll see is a pressure pulse just as the gear starts to fall.  The magnitude of the pulse is made greater by a few factors: 
  1. Warm/hot hydraulic fluid (lower viscosity)
  2. Outback gear (adds gear down force)
  3. High-side pressure well above nominal (descending into significantly warmer air)
  4. Original, lower volume gear pump
When the landing gear is in the retracted position, it stores a lot of potential energy.  This is from the mass of the landing gear, the pressure on the high side circuit and, with the outback gear, the aero loads trying to pull the gear down.
It is useful to look at Figures 9 and 10 in the hydraulics write-up when trying understand the chain of events. 
In Figure 9, you�ll see state of the pump while the gear is retracted.  When beginning the extension cycle, the pump builds up pressure behind the spool (right side) and pushes it against the poppet valve on the left as seen in Figure 10.  Opening the high side poppet valve opens a path for fluid from the high side circuit to return back to the pump.  It is not just the pump moving fluid though.  All the stored energy in the system is released and the falling gear, now also pushing fluid back to the pump.  Given the fixed volume nature of the gear pump, it can only absorb fluid at a certain rate.  If the gear pushes the fluid back faster than the pump can absorb it, back pressure builds up in the high side circuit.  With enough back pressure the spool is pushed back to the right.   As this happens, the high side poppet starts to close off again.  Pressure begins to rise and propagates backwards through the system.  As soon as the low side pressure rises above the pressure switch set point, the pump is shuts down. 
Most of the time, the shut-down is momentary.  This is because the pump takes time to spool down and it is still moving fluid as it does so.  At the same time, the falling gear is losing energy.  If the pressure spike was small, the pump side will win, the spool will again open the poppet all the way and the gear comes down.  If the spike was large, the pump will remain off and you will see equal pressure in the high and low side, just like in Lorn�s photo.  Pressure will be just above the set-point of the low side pressure switch and the gear will be partially extended.  Mitigation simply involves raising the low side pressure set-point so that the pressure spike can no longer affect the switch and pump.
I really don�t expect you to be convinced.  I post these details for the benefit everyone.
For many years now, I have been publishing all kinds of reports, studies, diagrams, maintenance guides and videos of Lancair systems is to promote a better understanding and safe operation of the LNC2.  If I have made errors somewhere, please point them out.  But don�t just say it is wrong or that you don�t agree. Please provide some legitimate, logical reasoning, some data or something that makes the point. 
To be honest, I found many of your posts to be a bit worrisome.  They left me with the impression you did not have a full understanding of the pump operating environment or its operation.
For example, when discussing spool movement, you claimed the pump could be subjected to 70 g�s.  The actual environment is much more benign.   Vibration peaks are more on the order of 0.1 G�s.  Below is a link to a vibration study that looks at airframe vibration in different phases of flight.  The study was done while looking into an engine isolator issue, but is a useful environmental baseline for anything mounted to the structure.   
Another example was a question regarding the ball and spring in the return line.  You had asked what their purpose was.  This would normally a very legitimate question.  My concern was that you had already designed a circuit to alter pump operation without being aware of or understanding the function of all the internal parts.
Innovation is a good thing, but on an aircraft the level of required due diligence is quite high.
Lorn�s pump definitely had issues.  Mounting the pump behind the baggage bulkhead is not ideal. It discourages good maintenance practices, just as it did in this case.  Being unwilling to remove it from the aircraft to investigate the internals because it was �so hard to get to� simply makes it impossible to properly investigate a problem.  When I offered to examine the pump, the response was that these airplanes were built to fly and two weeks of down-time was too much of a burden.  That was unfortunate.  Based on Lorn�s description of the pumps behavior I strongly suspected the root cause of its problems would have been immediately obvious upon examination.  I have disassembled more pumps that I can remember.  All were made to operate normally once configured and adjusted correctly. 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net
 
On Monday, April 28, 2014 4:59 AM, Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net> wrote:
Chris,
 
I remain unconvinced with your theory. You have suggested that the pump will somehow shut down immediately after it has started up due to some pressure pulse. The mechanisim of which you have yet to clarify, let alone demonstrated.
 
I'm tired of your kibitzing and since you have proven that you can't let it go, I will and leave you to humor yourself.
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 1:28 PM
Subject: Gear Down...INOP

Wolfgang,

<<�I believe in redundancy and it looks like you don't�.�>>

I am a big proponent of redundancy.  That is redundancy defined as a true back-up to an otherwise trouble-free system.

First, I have redundant switches to power the pump solenoids.  This allows me to raise and lower the gear in case of the failure of either of the pressure switches.  It doesn�t happen very often, but it does happen - twice in 17 years of flying my 360. 

I also have redundant gear down indications.  Two completely separate systems, separate switches, separate wires and separate indicators.  The second set of switches is mounted directly on the over-center links.

I even carry two iPads and a iPhone - just in case

<<�The pressure pulse you're talking about will subside (glad you agree) and as it does, because the cylinder is only partially extended, the cylinder will continues to extend, the low switch will close again, and enable the pump to continue . .�>>

The part you seem to be missing here is that the momentary pulse is not directly turning off the pump.  Thus when the pulse subsides, the pump doesn�t just spring back to life.  The pulse pushes the spool in the wrong direction -against the pump flow.  This locks the poppet that the pump just opened up a fraction of a second earlier.  When this happens, the high side begins to pressurize along with the low side.  As soon as both sides reach the low side pressure setting, the pump is turned off.  This is why you see both high and low circuits pressurized to the same value in Lorn�s photo.

To prevent this, the low side pressure settings should be raised.  800 psi has proven sufficient.  The high volume gear pump will reduce the size of the pulse since the higher volume pump is able to absorb incoming fluid at a higher rate.

I highly recommend pressure gauges for both high and low circuit be installed in a location visible to the pilot.  The state of the system can always be verified.  One can immediately diagnose any in-flight problem.  Leaks can be caught early.  And adjusting pressure settings is no longer guess work.
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net




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