X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:13:17 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from omr-m06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6560033 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:02:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.80; envelope-from=mquinns@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.138]) by omr-m06.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id E4B467003162E for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mkb003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mkb003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.98.9]) by mtaomg-da02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 6B59AE000088 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:02:08 -0400 (EDT) References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Odyssey PC680 Batteries on Firewall -- Cool Enough? In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Quinn X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D09D5731EB0ACD_1754_C0ADA_webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38109-STANDARD Received: from 207.126.196.16 by webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com (149.174.9.12) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:02:08 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8D09D5731CC20CC-1754-3777B@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [207.126.196.16] X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:02:08 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338a5266a180353a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D09D5731EB0ACD_1754_C0ADA_webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Angier, Back when I was building, Don Goetz visited my hanger at Spruce Creek, F= l (during Sun-N-Fun) to take at look at a wing skin issue. This was on a 36= 0 and he made the general comment that anything (weight) that could be move= d forward during construction would benefit the "envelope". Having read all= the nightmare stories about access to the hydraulic back installation (fac= tory setup), I decided to install my hydraulic back on the fire wall (hot s= ide). This was done (easy access) and the only downside observed is that on= a hot summer day (Florida!!!!!), I see about a 300psi increase on hydrauli= c pressure (gets to about 1900 psi) on my cockpit guages. I also noted that= many of the RVs (various types with over 50 on the field) have installed t= heir batteries on the hot side of the fire wall. There are various configur= ations (boxes, no boxes, blast tube cooling, etc). I also went this route w= ith a metal shield around the sides (open on top and bottom) with reflectiv= e insulation on the sides. No bast tubes or specialized cooling of any type= were used for the battery or hydraulic pack. I replaced my Odyssey 680 aft= er six years and am two years into a new one. The first battery still tests= fine while sitting under my work bench. It appears that heat issues forwar= d of the fire wall on my installation have never been a problem. There was = a hydraulic back issue that Chris Z. helped fix that involved the factory s= ettings but since that time everything is fine. The only issue in thinking = back is planing the fire wall positions and yes it is very congested (even = with the long mount) but access is ideal. My bird has 400 hours at this poi= nt.=20 Mark Quinn mquinns@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: Greenbacks, UnLtd. To: Valin & Allyson Thorn Cc: Ralph Love ; List Lancair Mailing Sent: Mon, Oct 21, 2013 11:07 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey PC680 Batteries on Firewall -- Cool Enough? OK, there is no good reason to have the weight of the pump, relays, wiring = and=20 ydraulic plumbing that far aft. his is not original thinking on my part, just common sense and following th= e=20 dvice of other builders who blazed this trail before me. don't know about the Legacy, but 235, 320 and 360 generally need help in t= he=20 ft CG department. ust for giggles, try servicing the pump and related systems located aft of = the=20 aggage compartment. t's not a pretty picture. ou'll need to employ the services of a midget gerbil with superior digital= =20 exterity. ven if you don't have an aft CG issue, you will need to remove the pump and= or=20 elays some day. went through 3 relays and 2 emergency gear extensions in the first ten hou= rs=20 efore correctly installing diodes on the relays. ithout the pump and relays behind the seat it would have been a major pain = to=20 rouble shoot and repair. While on the subject of aft CG and at the risk of starting yet another food= =20 ight, I added a lot of unnecessary (in my humble opinion) weight o my rudder in an attempt to achieve 100=C2=BA mass balance. I suspect my C= G could=20 ave been an inch further forward without all that xtra lead in the rudder. Nevertheless, I have excellent elevator trim=20 hroughout the entire speed envelope. Angier Ames 4ZQ 4hrs n Oct 21, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Valin & Allyson Thorn wrote: > Hi Angier, =20 Please let me know your arguments for mounting the hydraulic pump directly= =20 ehind the seat. Really appreciate your expertise.=20 =20 Ralph was interested in this too, so copying him.=20 =20 Thanks, =20 Allyson =20 > On Oct 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, "Greenbacks, UnLtd." wrot= e: >=20 > Hi Valin, >=20 > Move your hydraulic pump from its current location. > Create a small bulkhead and put the pump directly behind your seat. > The reasons are too numerous to list! > Don't even think twice about making this change. > Equally important, locate your pump breaker within easy reach on your pan= el. >=20 > Angier Ames > N4ZQ > 69hrs >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.ht= ml - or archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ----------MB_8D09D5731EB0ACD_1754_C0ADA_webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Angier,
   Back when I was building, Don Goetz visited my hanger at = Spruce Creek, Fl (during Sun-N-Fun) to take at look at a wing skin issue. T= his was on a 360 and he made the general comment that anything (weight) tha= t could be moved forward during construction would benefit the "envelope". = Having read all the nightmare stories about access to the hydraulic back in= stallation (factory setup), I decided to install my hydraulic back on the f= ire wall (hot side). This was done (easy access) and the only downside obse= rved is that on a hot summer day (Florida!!!!!), I see about a 300psi incre= ase on hydraulic pressure (gets to about 1900 psi) on my cockpit guage= s. I also noted that many of the RVs (various types with over 50 on th= e field) have installed their batteries on the hot side of the fi= re wall. There are various configurations (boxes, no boxes, blast tube cool= ing, etc). I also went this route with a metal shield around the sides (ope= n on top and bottom) with reflective insulation on the sides. No bast tubes= or specialized cooling of any type were used for the battery or hydraulic = pack. I replaced my Odyssey 680 after six years and am two years into = a new one. The first battery still tests fine while sitting under my work b= ench. It appears that heat issues forward of the fire wall on my installati= on have never been a problem. There was a hydraulic back issue that Chris Z= . helped fix that involved the factory settings but since that time everyth= ing is fine. The only issue in thinking back is planing the fire wall = positions and yes it is very congested (even with the long mount) but acces= s is ideal. My bird has 400 hours at this point. 
Mark Quinn
mquinns@aol.com


= -----Original Message-----
From: Greenbacks, UnLtd. <n4zq@verizon.net>
To: Valin & Allyson Thorn <thorn@starflight.aero>
Cc: Ralph Love <ralphlove@stanfordalumni.org>; List Lancair Mailing &= lt;lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Oct 21, 2013 11:07 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey PC680 Batteries on Firewall -- Cool Enough?

OK, th=
ere is no good reason to have the weight of the pump, relays, wiring and=20
hydraulic plumbing that far aft.
This is not original thinking on my part, just common sense and following t=
he=20
advice of other builders who blazed this trail before me.
I don't know about the Legacy, but 235, 320 and 360 generally need help in =
the=20
aft CG department.
Just for giggles, try servicing the pump and related systems located aft of=
 the=20
baggage compartment.
It's not a pretty picture.
You'll need to employ the services of a midget gerbil with superior digital=
=20
dexterity.
Even if you don't have an aft CG issue, you will need to remove the pump an=
d or=20
relays some day.
I went through 3 relays and 2 emergency gear extensions in the first ten ho=
urs=20
before correctly installing diodes on the relays.
Without the pump and relays behind the seat it would have been a major pain=
 to=20
trouble shoot and repair.

While on the subject of aft CG and at the risk of starting yet another food=
=20
fight, I added a lot of unnecessary (in my humble opinion) weight
to my rudder in an attempt to achieve 100=C2=BA mass balance. I suspect my =
CG could=20
have been an inch further forward without all that
extra lead in the rudder. Nevertheless, I have excellent elevator trim=20
throughout the entire speed envelope.

Angier Ames
N4ZQ
74hrs


On Oct 21, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Valin & Allyson Thorn wrote:

> Hi Angier,
>=20
> Please let me know your arguments for mounting the hydraulic pump dire=
ctly=20
behind the seat. Really appreciate your expertise.=20
>=20
> Ralph was interested in this too, so copying him.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Allyson
>=20
>> On Oct 21, 2013, at 1:30 PM, "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ@VERIZON.NET> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Valin,
>>=20
>> Move your hydraulic pump from its current location.
>> Create a small bulkhead and put the pump directly behind your seat=
.
>> The reasons are too numerous to list!
>> Don't even think twice about making this change.
>> Equally important, locate your pump breaker within easy reach on y=
our panel.
>>=20
>> Angier Ames
>> N4ZQ
>> 69hrs
>>=20
>> --
>> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list=
s/lml/List.html


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