X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:17:17 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from carbinge.com ([69.5.27.218] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with SMTP id 6550550 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:52:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.5.27.218; envelope-from=jbarrett@carbinge.com Received: (qmail 8107 invoked from network); 22 Oct 2013 14:51:50 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; s=default; d=carbinge.com; b=bR4KMkSIwSSk4cKSGua/skTTCem+UGP8/1j+Sp7JdxwQuNCbiWE+FxvVPTuHyBz07iFONjXsWvEX4UfD2/oTHt3ywvmyZtWGKRFutwc+6tQMHMcJEu6thQ2ONCOvb63/qdGZodGLBLLypW8bBMJh+zSbaiAps8A1S41CIWUnb1c=; X-Originating-IP: [208.53.115.208] Reply-To: From: "John Barrett" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 07:51:48 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: <01a901cecf36$3cfb7860$b6f26920$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01AA_01CECEFB.909CA060" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac7PJ2oJ0Xt7nhbTT+qxXBStgpm4IwADrgOw Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01AA_01CECEFB.909CA060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Colyn for in depth reply. Now I have a plan. I hope others pick up on this too. How often do you do this? John From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 6:05 AM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP go to 15,000. Get well lean of peak in cruise setting. shut down one mag (er...one ignition system). If you get a minor rpm change, you are good. If you get major roughness, your ignition needs attention. Magneto ignitions are subject to: - champion spark plug has gotten out of spec for resistance - spark plug gap too high - air in mag is not pressurized or is wet. (check the filter) - any defects in the harness On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:55 AM, John Barrett wrote: Thanks to Gary and Colyn and everyone else who have schooled me on this event. I think I understand what was happening better. Someone suggested testing ignition during flight to get a true picture of what is going on. I would like to know more about that. I assume you would not want to do this at high power settings with a TSIO 550? Can anyone explain parameters of safety and what exactly one should do to test this? Most assuredly if I had done an ignition check after landing but prior to shut down the cause of the event would have been very clear and saved much time, effort and grief. It will be included in my checklist for the future. Regards, John Barrett From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:55 PM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP So to get to GA accident rates we as a fleet have free of failures that could contribute to a fatality (on all systems including the pilot) 99.999% of the hours flown. A system that fails 1% of the hours flown is about 1000 times more dangerous than that. Something to think about when selecting components. On Oct 21, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Gary Casey wrote: I was going to guess that. Honest, I was :-). But just one correction: The high exhaust temperature with one ignition off isn't due to "incomplete fuel burn." The burn is virtually complete whether running on one spark plug or two. But the burn RATE is much different. With two plugs there are two flame fronts and the burn completes sooner. The slower burn rate on one plug means that a significant portion of the burn happens during the expansion stroke and less heat is converted to power. Hence the exhaust temperature is higher. Further, when the mixture is leaned past the best power (or maybe peak EGT) the flame travel is even slower and consequently the exhaust temperature will likely just continue to go up when leaning, not peak and go down. Most people have had great luck with the Lightspeed system, but I am on my fourth in just 400 hours with none of the failures were due to installation errors and all were different problems. The last one has been running perfectly for over 100 hours, so I guess I'm past the near side of the bathtub curve :-). Klaus was never very forthcoming about the failures, but here is what happened: 1. With about 10 hours on the plane the inverter power device for one channel (two spark plugs) quit and then after about 10 minutes it completely shorted and blew the fuse. 2. One of the channels started to intermittently trigger off the previous channel, putting the spark at about 140 BTC. Now, THAT gets your attention. Fortunately, it happened on the ground at the beginning of the takeoff roll. No real explanation, but "later model" components were installed. 3. One of the channels would quit after 10 or 20 minutes of flight. Again, no real explanation was given. The ignition coils were also replaced at that time as the "new" coils were supposedly "better." 4. Still going strong at 400 hours. I will say it starts and run faultlessly, and I REALLY like the improved performance above 10,000 feet produced by the extra timing advance. Gary Casey Time to fess up. The failure mode turned out to be a failed electronic igni= tion system. I run one Plasma III lightspeed and one mag. The lightspeed q= uit and I didn't recognize it. It had to have happened during climb out or a= t level off. The run up prior to take off was entirely normal. =20 The hot TIT's and EGT's were the result of incomplete fuel burn by the mag t= hat was the only ignition still running. Fuel in the exhaust stacks burns i= n the turbines and heats everything up real fast. I don't understand why le= aning made it worse though. Can anyone explain that? Lest anyone jump on Klaus, let me be quick to admit it was not a failure of h= is system but rather an installation defect. As a matter of fact he got o= n the phone with me on a weekend day and helped trouble shoot it. He overni= ghted a loaner to me when I didn't have enough tools or access to do adequat= e system checks and did not laugh at me too badly when the loaner did not fi= x the problem. A check of the ground for the power circuit showed about 2 K= ohms resistance. The fix was to wire in another ground. Best regards, John Barrett ------=_NextPart_000_01AA_01CECEFB.909CA060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Colyn for in depth reply.

 

Now I have a plan.  I hope others pick up on this too.  =

 

How often do you do this?

 

John

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 6:05 = AM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Hot = TITs on X country leg. LIVP

 

go to = 15,000.   Get well lean of peak in cruise setting.   shut down = one mag (er...one ignition system).  If you get a minor rpm change, = you are good.   If you get major roughness, your ignition needs = attention.

Magneto ignitions are = subject to:

- champion = spark plug has gotten out of spec for = resistance

- spark plug = gap too high

- air in mag = is not pressurized or is wet.  (check the = filter)

- any defects in = the harness

 

On = Oct 22, 2013, at 7:55 AM, John Barrett wrote:



Thanks to Gary and Colyn and everyone else who have schooled me on = this event.  I think I understand what was happening = better.

 

Someone suggested testing ignition during flight to get a true = picture of what is going on.  I would like to know more about = that.  I assume you would not want to do this at high power = settings with a TSIO 550?  Can anyone explain parameters of safety = and what exactly one should do to test = this?

 

Most assuredly if I had done an ignition check after landing  = but prior to shut down the cause of the event would have been very clear = and saved much time, effort and grief.   It will be included = in my checklist for the future.

 

Regards,
John Barrett

 

 

From:=  Lancair = Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn = Case
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:55 = PM
To: Lancair = Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X = country leg. LIVP

 

So to get to GA accident rates we as a fleet have free = of failures that could contribute to a fatality (on all systems = including the pilot) 99.999% of the hours = flown.

A system that = fails 1% of the hours flown is about 1000 times more dangerous than = that.

Something = to think about when selecting = components.

 

On Oct 21, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Gary Casey = wrote:

 

I was going = to guess that.  Honest, I was :-).  But just one correction: =  The high exhaust temperature with one ignition off isn't due to = "incomplete fuel burn."  The burn is virtually complete = whether running on one spark plug or two.  But the burn RATE is = much different.  With two plugs there are two flame fronts and the = burn completes sooner.  The slower burn rate on one plug means that = a significant portion of the burn happens during the expansion stroke = and less heat is converted to power.  Hence the exhaust temperature = is higher.  Further, when the mixture is leaned past the best power = (or maybe peak EGT) the flame travel is even slower and consequently the = exhaust temperature will likely just continue to go up when leaning, not = peak and go down.

 <= o:p>

Most people = have had great luck with the Lightspeed system, but I am on my fourth in = just 400 hours with none of the failures were due to installation errors = and all were different problems.  The last one has been running = perfectly for over 100 hours, so I guess I'm past the near side of the = bathtub curve :-).  Klaus was never very forthcoming about the = failures, but here is what = happened:

1.  With = about 10 hours on the plane the inverter power device for one channel = (two spark plugs) quit and then after about 10 minutes it completely = shorted and blew the fuse.

2.  One = of the channels started to intermittently trigger off the previous = channel, putting the spark at about 140 BTC.  Now, THAT gets your = attention.  Fortunately, it happened on the ground at the beginning = of the takeoff roll.  No real explanation, but "later = model" components were = installed.

3.  One = of the channels would quit after 10 or 20 minutes of flight. =  Again, no real explanation was given.  The ignition coils = were also replaced at that time as the "new" coils were = supposedly = "better."

4. =  Still going strong at 400 hours.  I will say it starts and = run faultlessly, and I REALLY like the improved performance above 10,000 = feet produced by the extra timing = advance.

Gary = Casey

 <= o:p>

 

Time to fess up.  The failure mode turned = out to be a failed electronic igni=3D
tion system.  I run one Plasma III = lightspeed and one mag.  The lightspeed q=3D
uit and I didn't recognize it.  It had to = have happened during climb out or a=3D
t level off.  The run up prior to take off = was entirely normal. =3D20

The hot TIT's and EGT's were the result of = incomplete fuel burn by the mag t=3D
hat was the only ignition still running.  = Fuel in the exhaust stacks burns i=3D
n the turbines and heats everything up real = fast.  I don't understand why le=3D
aning made it worse though.  Can anyone = explain that?

Lest anyone = jump on Klaus, let me be quick to admit it was not a failure of = h=3D
is system but rather  = an installation defect.  As a matter of fact he  got = o=3D
n the phone with me on a = weekend day and helped trouble shoot it.  He = overni=3D
ghted a loaner to me = when I didn't have enough tools or access to do = adequat=3D
e system checks and = did not laugh at me too badly when the loaner did not = fi=3D
x the problem.  A = check of the ground for the power circuit showed about 2 = K=3D
ohms resistance.  The = fix was to wire in another ground.

Best regards,
John = Barrett

 

 

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