X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:15:16 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from outbound-jr1.exchangedefender.com ([65.99.255.228] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6550463 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:14:01 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.99.255.228; envelope-from=cberland@systems3.net Received: from remote.systems3.net (wsip-98-172-79-178.ph.ph.cox.net [98.172.79.178]) by outbound-jr1.exchangedefender.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r9ME9VLi009814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:09:31 -0400 Received: from S3SBS11SERVER.Systems3.local ([fe80::5ce0:47a:d104:b76]) by S3SBS11SERVER.Systems3.local ([fe80::5ce0:47a:d104:b76%11]) with mapi id 14.01.0438.000; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 07:09:26 -0700 From: Craig Berland X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP Thread-Index: AQHOzyfghb30fcD+OkebvIW4SMlOTJoAwA1A X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 14:09:25 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <03ED6C7C51EFA9489CA3844E6F7B6676071AFA68@S3SBS11SERVER.Systems3.local> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.16.36] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_03ED6C7C51EFA9489CA3844E6F7B6676071AFA68S3SBS11SERVERSy_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ExchangeDefender-Info: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ExchangeDefender-VirusScan: Found to be clean X-ExchangeDefender-From: cberland@systems3.net X-ExchangeDefender-MagicKey: 1383660572.32587@50lUDQ+PxdbsRbVErfiWvA X-Spam-Status: No --_000_03ED6C7C51EFA9489CA3844E6F7B6676071AFA68S3SBS11SERVERSy_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is a good way to test your ignition but I will caution you: 1. In your case where one ignition system was kaput....the engine wil= l stall. a. When this happens, do NOT turn the ignition back on before you go = full idle cut-off. b. After pulling the red knob full back, turn the ignition back on and= slowly advance the mixture. c. This will prevent a very unpleasant pop in the exhaust system. d. If your wife is with you it will likely prevent a black eye. 2. On second thought...maybe your wife should not be part of the test= sequence. a. Mine isn't real pleased when the engine loses power under normal c= ircumstances. b. I think she might strangle me if the engine quit. Craig Berland go to 15,000. Get well lean of peak in cruise setting. shut down one ma= g (er...one ignition system). If you get a minor rpm change, you are good.= If you get major roughness, your ignition needs attention. Magneto ignitions are subject to: - champion spark plug has gotten out of spec for resistance - spark plug gap too high - air in mag is not pressurized or is wet. (check the filter) - any defects in the harness On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:55 AM, John Barrett wrote: Thanks to Gary and Colyn and everyone else who have schooled me on this eve= nt. I think I understand what was happening better. Someone suggested testing ignition during flight to get a true picture of w= hat is going on. I would like to know more about that. I assume you would= not want to do this at high power settings with a TSIO 550? Can anyone ex= plain parameters of safety and what exactly one should do to test this? Most assuredly if I had done an ignition check after landing but prior to = shut down the cause of the event would have been very clear and saved much = time, effort and grief. It will be included in my checklist for the futur= e. Regards, John Barrett From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Coly= n Case Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:55 PM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP So to get to GA accident rates we as a fleet have free of failures that cou= ld contribute to a fatality (on all systems including the pilot) 99.999% of= the hours flown. A system that fails 1% of the hours flown is about 1000 times more dangerou= s than that. Something to think about when selecting components. On Oct 21, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Gary Casey wrote: I was going to guess that. Honest, I was :-). But just one correction: T= he high exhaust temperature with one ignition off isn't due to "incomplete = fuel burn." The burn is virtually complete whether running on one spark pl= ug or two. But the burn RATE is much different. With two plugs there are = two flame fronts and the burn completes sooner. The slower burn rate on on= e plug means that a significant portion of the burn happens during the expa= nsion stroke and less heat is converted to power. Hence the exhaust temper= ature is higher. Further, when the mixture is leaned past the best power (= or maybe peak EGT) the flame travel is even slower and consequently the exh= aust temperature will likely just continue to go up when leaning, not peak = and go down. Most people have had great luck with the Lightspeed system, but I am on my = fourth in just 400 hours with none of the failures were due to installation= errors and all were different problems. The last one has been running per= fectly for over 100 hours, so I guess I'm past the near side of the bathtub= curve :-). Klaus was never very forthcoming about the failures, but here = is what happened: 1. With about 10 hours on the plane the inverter power device for one chan= nel (two spark plugs) quit and then after about 10 minutes it completely sh= orted and blew the fuse. 2. One of the channels started to intermittently trigger off the previous = channel, putting the spark at about 140 BTC. Now, THAT gets your attention= . Fortunately, it happened on the ground at the beginning of the takeoff r= oll. No real explanation, but "later model" components were installed. 3. One of the channels would quit after 10 or 20 minutes of flight. Again= , no real explanation was given. The ignition coils were also replaced at = that time as the "new" coils were supposedly "better." 4. Still going strong at 400 hours. I will say it starts and run faultles= sly, and I REALLY like the improved performance above 10,000 feet produced = by the extra timing advance. Gary Casey Time to fess up. The failure mode turned out to be a failed electronic ign= i=3D tion system. I run one Plasma III lightspeed and one mag. The lightspeed = q=3D uit and I didn't recognize it. It had to have happened during climb out or= a=3D t level off. The run up prior to take off was entirely normal. =3D20 The hot TIT's and EGT's were the result of incomplete fuel burn by the mag = t=3D hat was the only ignition still running. Fuel in the exhaust stacks burns = i=3D n the turbines and heats everything up real fast. I don't understand why l= e=3D aning made it worse though. Can anyone explain that? Lest anyone jump on Klaus, let me be quick to admit it was not a failure of= h=3D is system but rather an installation defect. As a matter of fact he got = o=3D n the phone with me on a weekend day and helped trouble shoot it. He overn= i=3D ghted a loaner to me when I didn't have enough tools or access to do adequa= t=3D e system checks and did not laugh at me too badly when the loaner did not f= i=3D x the problem. A check of the ground for the power circuit showed about 2 = K=3D ohms resistance. The fix was to wire in another ground. Best regards, John Barrett --_000_03ED6C7C51EFA9489CA3844E6F7B6676071AFA68S3SBS11SERVERSy_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think this is a good= way to test your ignition but I will caution you:

1. = ;      In your case wher= e one ignition system was kaput….the engine will stall.

a.  &= nbsp;    When this happens= , do NOT turn the ignition back on before you go full idle cut-off.

b.  &= nbsp;   After pulling the= red knob full back, turn the ignition back on and slowly advance the mixtu= re.

c.  &= nbsp;    This will prevent= a very unpleasant pop in the exhaust system.

d.  &= nbsp;   If your wife is w= ith you it will likely prevent a black eye.

2. = ;      On second thought= …maybe your wife should not be part of the test sequence.<= /span>

a.  &= nbsp;    Mine isn’t = real pleased when the engine loses power under normal circumstances.

b.  &= nbsp;   I think she might= strangle me if the engine quit.

 <= /p>

Craig Berland<= /span>

 

go to 15,000.   Get well lean of peak in cruise= setting.   shut down one mag (er...one ignition system).  If you= get a minor rpm change, you are good.   If you get major roughness, y= our ignition needs attention.

Magneto ignitions are subject to:

- champion spark plug has gotten out of spec for res= istance

- spark plug gap too high

- air in mag is not pressurized or is wet.  (ch= eck the filter)

- any defects in the harness

 

On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:55 AM, John Barrett wrote:



Thanks to Gary and Colyn = and everyone else who have schooled me on this event.  I think I under= stand what was happening better.

 <= /p>

Someone suggested testing= ignition during flight to get a true picture of what is going on.  I = would like to know more about that.  I assume you would not want to do this at high power settings with a TSIO 550?  Can anyone explai= n parameters of safety and what exactly one should do to test this?<= o:p>

 <= /p>

Most assuredly if I had d= one an ignition check after landing  but prior to shut down the cause = of the event would have been very clear and saved much time, effort and grief.   It will be included in my checklist for the = future.

 <= /p>

Regards,
John Barrett

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancairo= nline.net] On Beha= lf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Monday, Octo= ber 21, 2013 4:55 PM
To: Lancair Mailin= g List
Subject: [LML] Re:= Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP

 

So to get to GA accident rates we as a fleet have fr= ee of failures that could contribute to a fatality (on all systems includin= g the pilot) 99.999% of the hours flown.

A system that fails 1% of the hours flown is about 1= 000 times more dangerous than that.

Something to think about when selecting components.<= o:p>

 

On Oct 21, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Gary Casey wrote:<= /o:p>

 

I was going to = guess that.  Honest, I was :-).  But just one correction:  T= he high exhaust temperature with one ignition off isn't due to "incomp= lete fuel burn."  The burn is virtually complete whether running on o= ne spark plug or two.  But the burn RATE is much different.  With= two plugs there are two flame fronts and the burn completes sooner.  = The slower burn rate on one plug means that a significant portion of the burn happens during the expansion stroke and less heat is c= onverted to power.  Hence the exhaust temperature is higher.  Fur= ther, when the mixture is leaned past the best power (or maybe peak EGT) th= e flame travel is even slower and consequently the exhaust temperature will likely just continue to go up when leaning, n= ot peak and go down.

 

Most people have had great luck with the L= ightspeed system, but I am on my fourth in just 400 hours with none of the = failures were due to installation errors and all were different problems.  The last one has been running perfectly for over 100 hours= , so I guess I'm past the near side of the bathtub curve :-).  Klaus w= as never very forthcoming about the failures, but here is what happened:

1.  With about 10 hours on the plane = the inverter power device for one channel (two spark plugs) quit and then a= fter about 10 minutes it completely shorted and blew the fuse.<= /o:p>

2.  One of the channels started to in= termittently trigger off the previous channel, putting the spark at about 1= 40 BTC.  Now, THAT gets your attention.  Fortunately, it happened on the ground at the beginning of the takeoff roll.  No real explanat= ion, but "later model" components were installed.

3.  One of the channels would quit af= ter 10 or 20 minutes of flight.  Again, no real explanation was given.=  The ignition coils were also replaced at that time as the "new&= quot; coils were supposedly "better."

4.  Still going strong at 400 hours. =  I will say it starts and run faultlessly, and I REALLY like the impro= ved performance above 10,000 feet produced by the extra timing advance.

Gary Casey

 

 

Time to fess up.  The failure mode tu= rned out to be a failed electronic igni=3D
tion system.  I run one Plasma III li= ghtspeed and one mag.  The lightspeed q=3D
uit and I didn't recognize it.  It ha= d to have happened during climb out or a=3D
t level off.  The run up prior to tak= e off was entirely normal. =3D20

The hot TIT's and EGT's were the result of= incomplete fuel burn by the mag t=3D
hat was the only ignition still running.&n= bsp; Fuel in the exhaust stacks burns i=3D
n the turbines and heats everything up rea= l fast.  I don't understand why le=3D
aning made it worse though.  Can anyo= ne explain that?

Lest anyone jump on Klaus, let me be quick= to admit it was not a failure of h=3D
is system but rather  an installation= defect.  As a matter of fact he  got o=3D
n the phone with me on a weekend day and h= elped trouble shoot it.  He overni=3D
ghted a loaner to me when I didn't have en= ough tools or access to do adequat=3D
e system checks and did not laugh at me to= o badly when the loaner did not fi=3D
x the problem.  A check of the ground= for the power circuit showed about 2 K=3D
ohms resistance.  The fix was to wire= in another ground.

Best regards,
John Barrett

 

 




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