X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTP id 6550387 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:05:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=L5g5x3+qghfhiP0Xt1GeVu2WArs4ZHt2/KoRT52rWy6PgYbQ3FqGSJUfHhnJ0+3D; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [70.20.45.53] (helo=[192.168.1.24]) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1VYbds-0006Qa-NE for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:05:01 -0400 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9-412974160 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:04:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940cdec145aba30784a9be8b8e9829612cb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 70.20.45.53 --Apple-Mail-9-412974160 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii go to 15,000. Get well lean of peak in cruise setting. shut down one = mag (er...one ignition system). If you get a minor rpm change, you are = good. If you get major roughness, your ignition needs attention. Magneto ignitions are subject to: - champion spark plug has gotten out of spec for resistance - spark plug gap too high - air in mag is not pressurized or is wet. (check the filter) - any defects in the harness On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:55 AM, John Barrett wrote: Thanks to Gary and Colyn and everyone else who have schooled me on this = event. I think I understand what was happening better. =20 Someone suggested testing ignition during flight to get a true picture = of what is going on. I would like to know more about that. I assume = you would not want to do this at high power settings with a TSIO 550? = Can anyone explain parameters of safety and what exactly one should do = to test this? =20 Most assuredly if I had done an ignition check after landing but prior = to shut down the cause of the event would have been very clear and saved = much time, effort and grief. It will be included in my checklist for = the future. =20 Regards, John Barrett =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:55 PM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X country leg. LIVP =20 So to get to GA accident rates we as a fleet have free of failures that = could contribute to a fatality (on all systems including the pilot) = 99.999% of the hours flown. A system that fails 1% of the hours flown is about 1000 times more = dangerous than that. Something to think about when selecting components. =20 On Oct 21, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Gary Casey wrote: =20 I was going to guess that. Honest, I was :-). But just one correction: = The high exhaust temperature with one ignition off isn't due to = "incomplete fuel burn." The burn is virtually complete whether running = on one spark plug or two. But the burn RATE is much different. With = two plugs there are two flame fronts and the burn completes sooner. The = slower burn rate on one plug means that a significant portion of the = burn happens during the expansion stroke and less heat is converted to = power. Hence the exhaust temperature is higher. Further, when the = mixture is leaned past the best power (or maybe peak EGT) the flame = travel is even slower and consequently the exhaust temperature will = likely just continue to go up when leaning, not peak and go down. =20 Most people have had great luck with the Lightspeed system, but I am on = my fourth in just 400 hours with none of the failures were due to = installation errors and all were different problems. The last one has = been running perfectly for over 100 hours, so I guess I'm past the near = side of the bathtub curve :-). Klaus was never very forthcoming about = the failures, but here is what happened: 1. With about 10 hours on the plane the inverter power device for one = channel (two spark plugs) quit and then after about 10 minutes it = completely shorted and blew the fuse. 2. One of the channels started to intermittently trigger off the = previous channel, putting the spark at about 140 BTC. Now, THAT gets = your attention. Fortunately, it happened on the ground at the beginning = of the takeoff roll. No real explanation, but "later model" components = were installed. 3. One of the channels would quit after 10 or 20 minutes of flight. = Again, no real explanation was given. The ignition coils were also = replaced at that time as the "new" coils were supposedly "better." 4. Still going strong at 400 hours. I will say it starts and run = faultlessly, and I REALLY like the improved performance above 10,000 = feet produced by the extra timing advance. Gary Casey =20 =20 Time to fess up. The failure mode turned out to be a failed electronic = igni=3D tion system. I run one Plasma III lightspeed and one mag. The = lightspeed q=3D uit and I didn't recognize it. It had to have happened during climb out = or a=3D t level off. The run up prior to take off was entirely normal. =3D20 The hot TIT's and EGT's were the result of incomplete fuel burn by the = mag t=3D hat was the only ignition still running. Fuel in the exhaust stacks = burns i=3D n the turbines and heats everything up real fast. I don't understand = why le=3D aning made it worse though. Can anyone explain that? Lest anyone jump on Klaus, let me be quick to admit it was not a failure = of h=3D is system but rather an installation defect. As a matter of fact he = got o=3D n the phone with me on a weekend day and helped trouble shoot it. He = overni=3D ghted a loaner to me when I didn't have enough tools or access to do = adequat=3D e system checks and did not laugh at me too badly when the loaner did = not fi=3D x the problem. A check of the ground for the power circuit showed about = 2 K=3D ohms resistance. The fix was to wire in another ground. Best regards, John Barrett =20 --Apple-Mail-9-412974160 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii go to 15,000.   Get well lean of peak in = cruise setting.   shut down one mag (er...one ignition system). =  If you get a minor rpm change, you are good.   If you get = major roughness, your ignition needs attention.
Magneto ignitions = are subject to:
- champion spark plug has gotten out of spec = for resistance
- spark plug gap too high
- air in = mag is not pressurized or is wet.  (check the filter)
- = any defects in the harness

On Oct 22, 2013, at = 7:55 AM, John Barrett wrote:

 
Most assuredly if I had done an = ignition check after landing  but prior to shut down the cause of = the event would have been very clear and saved much time, effort and = grief.   It will be included in my checklist for the = future.
From: Lancair Mailing List = [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn = Case
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 = 4:55 PM
To: Lancair Mailing = List
Subject: [LML] Re: Hot TITs on X = country leg. LIVP
 
So to get to GA accident = rates we as a fleet have free of failures that could contribute to a = fatality (on all systems including the pilot) 99.999% of the hours = flown.
A system that fails 1% of the = hours flown is about 1000 times more dangerous than = that.
Something to think about = when selecting components.
 
On Oct 21, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Gary Casey = wrote:
I was going = to guess that.  Honest, I was :-).  But just one correction: =  The high exhaust temperature with one ignition off isn't due to = "incomplete fuel burn."  The burn is virtually complete whether = running on one spark plug or two.  But the burn RATE is much = different.  With two plugs there are two flame fronts and the burn = completes sooner.  The slower burn rate on one plug means that a = significant portion of the burn happens during the expansion stroke and = less heat is converted to power.  Hence the exhaust temperature is = higher.  Further, when the mixture is leaned past the best power = (or maybe peak EGT) the flame travel is even slower and consequently the = exhaust temperature will likely just continue to go up when leaning, not = peak and go down.
Most people = have had great luck with the Lightspeed system, but I am on my fourth in = just 400 hours with none of the failures were due to installation errors = and all were different problems.  The last one has been running = perfectly for over 100 hours, so I guess I'm past the near side of the = bathtub curve :-).  Klaus was never very forthcoming about the = failures, but here is what = happened:
1. =  With about 10 hours on the plane the inverter power device for one = channel (two spark plugs) quit and then after about 10 minutes it = completely shorted and blew the = fuse.
2.  One of the channels = started to intermittently trigger off the previous channel, putting the = spark at about 140 BTC.  Now, THAT gets your attention. =  Fortunately, it happened on the ground at the beginning of the = takeoff roll.  No real explanation, but "later model" components = were installed.
3.  One of the channels would quit after 10 or 20 = minutes of flight.  Again, no real explanation was given.  The = ignition coils were also replaced at that time as the "new" coils were = supposedly "better."
4.  Still going strong at 400 hours.  I will = say it starts and run faultlessly, and I REALLY like the improved = performance above 10,000 feet produced by the extra timing = advance.
Gary = Casey
 

Time to fess up.  = The failure mode turned out to be a failed electronic = igni=3D
tion system.  I = run one Plasma III lightspeed and one mag.  The lightspeed = q=3D
uit and I didn't = recognize it.  It had to have happened during climb out or = a=3D
t level off.  The = run up prior to take off was entirely normal. =3D20

The hot TIT's and EGT's were the result of = incomplete fuel burn by the mag t=3D
hat was the only ignition still = running.  Fuel in the exhaust stacks burns i=3D
n the turbines and heats everything up real = fast.  I don't understand why le=3D
aning made it worse though.  Can anyone = explain that?

Lest anyone = jump on Klaus, let me be quick to admit it was not a failure of = h=3D
is system but = rather  an installation defect.  As a matter of fact he  = got o=3D
n the phone with me = on a weekend day and helped trouble shoot it.  He = overni=3D
ghted a loaner to = me when I didn't have enough tools or access to do = adequat=3D
e system checks = and did not laugh at me too badly when the loaner did not = fi=3D
x the problem.  A = check of the ground for the power circuit showed about 2 = K=3D
ohms resistance.  = The fix was to wire in another ground.

Best regards,
John Barrett