X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:12:11 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail.carneal.com ([174.129.224.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6354267 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:31:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=174.129.224.69; envelope-from=walter@advancedpilot.com Received: (qmail 19388 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2013 23:30:17 -0000 Received: from c-75-70-32-170.hsd1.co.comcast.net (HELO ?10.0.0.3?) (walter@advancedpilot.com@75.70.32.170) by mail.carneal.com with ESMTPA; 28 Jun 2013 23:30:17 -0000 From: Walter Atkinson Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_333159D5-642D-4505-B1AF-4C44C55EF0C8" Subject: Re: [LML] GAMI test X-Original-Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:30:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) --Apple-Mail=_333159D5-642D-4505-B1AF-4C44C55EF0C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Colin: AT critical altitude the turbine is at max speed with the wastegate = closed. 1649TIT is still OK, but you only have a one degree under the = limit. At attitudes UNDER that, the wastegate is not fully closed and = the turbine speed is at something LESS than max RPM. The temp required = to cause a problem is higher than 1650dF, but we don't know exactly what = that is, so we still use 1650dF as the limit=85 but there is some more = margin than we think. Walter Atkinson On Jun 27, 2013, at 7:19 AM, Colyn Case wrote: Walter, Can you please elaborate on: The turbo may be safely operate at 1649 all day long without concern. A = s a matter of fact, that number is conservative unless one is at = critical altitude. I'm specifically wondering what is changing at critical altitude. The = wastegate is closed, cooling is minimal, but does TIT not correlate in = the same way to turbine speed? Colyn On Jun 27, 2013, at 9:04 AM, Walter Atkinson wrote: Bob: Based on hard data, there are some significant misstatements in your = post. I will comment in line. **To run a TSIO 550 lean of peak, it must be operated below 75% power.** Many of these engines are operated above 75% power as a matter of = routine while controlling CHTs. This usually requires operating it LOP. = As Confucius say, "Do not tell man something impossible when he already = do it!" **but it=92s important that you know--and operate the engine at lower = power settings--if you want to run LOP. ** There is absolutely NO reason not to operate the engine LOP at high = power settings. Literally, thousands of pilots are doing so quite = successfully. **When you run rich of peak, some of the fuel is used directly for = cooling and passes through the engine without burning. As a matter of = course, it cools by evaporation, and leaves nasty lead and other = deposits behind=85on plugs, valves, etc. ** The heat of vaporization of any extra fuel in a ROP mixture is not even = a blip on the radar screen in BTUs available for cooling. The reason a = richer mixture runs cooler than, say 50dF ROP, is that the richer = mixture burns slower placing the thetaPP further from TDC. This results = in lower internal cylinder pressures and fewer BTUs transferred across = the thermal boundary layer. Extra fuel does NOT cool a cylinder. A = full rich mixture relying on heat of vaporization for cooling would not = be 1 degree cooler! **So when you run LOP and eliminate this source of cooling, you must = offset it by either reducing power (total heat produced) or increasing = cooling (better baffling). ** When LOP, the leaner mixture slows the burn even mores than a richer = mixture and cooling is even better. It is possible, therefore, to = operate at higher power settings LOP with the same CHTs as ROP, or at = the same power setting with cooler CHTs. **So as you lean the mixture toward max cylinder EGT, you=92re reducing = the amount of fuel available for cooling and the CHT=92s go up.** No. See above. **With most Continental engines, this doesn=92t happen at the same fuel = flow for all cylinders, that is, one cylinder reaches peak EGT at a = given fuel flow (around 16-17 GPH if you=92re running about 65% power) = as you lean, while the other cylinders are still rich of peak EGT. You = need to note the fuel flow when the first cylinder reaches peak EGT. As = you continue to lean, the EGT (and CHT to a lesser extent) of the first = to peak starts going down, while the remaining cylinder EGTs (and CHTs) = continue to go up. Eventually, all cylinders reach peak EGT and start = decreasing. Note the fuel flow when the last cylinder reaches peak EGT = and just starts to decrease. The difference in fuel flow between first = and last cylinder EGT to peak is the =93GAMI lean test.=94 Ideally, the = fuel flow between first and last should be less than 1 GPH; use of GAMIs = can tune this to less than half a gallon per hour, BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS = OPTIMIZED FOR ONLY ONE POWER/RPM setting, so you should test/set up the = engine at the normally-expected cruise power setting.** Well, sort of. You have correctly explained the GAMI Lean Test. The = spread between the first and last to peak in GPH is called the GAMI = Spread. 1gph is pretty poor. GAMI shoots for a Spread of 0.3 and most = engines will run "smooth enough" with a Gami Spread of 0.5 or below. = While the GAMIjectors were originally "optimized at 2300rpm (not any = particular power setting) testing has shown them to remain quite well = balanced along a wide range of rpms and power settings. The GAMI Spread = will change very little UNLESS you have induction leaks. **Here=92s the rub: You need to be sure all cylinders are at least 30 = degrees below their peak EGT when operating the engine in cruise power, = and this is critically important when LOP. Ideally, all cylinders are = all operating at about the same amount below their individual peak EGTs, = but the actual temperatures are not significant=85it=92s the peak value = and delta below--for each cylinder--that=92s significant. If the fuel = flow is not well balanced among the cylinders, the first to peak EGT = will get so lean by the time that you get the last to 30 degrees below = peak EGT that the first to peak starts mis-firing. My cylinders start = mis-firing at about 120 degrees LOP as a reference point. Mine are well = enough balanced (no GAMIs) that I can operate the richest cylinder at 60 = degrees LOP and the leanest cylinder (first to peak when leaning) will = remain below 100 degrees LOP. That equates to about a 0.5 GPH fuel flow = difference FOR MY ENGINE=85but this varies a lot from engine to engine, = and with the power/RPM setting. ** How far LOP one should set the mixture is dependent upon the power being = produced, not some magic number that always works. For example, at 65% = power, 20dF LOP is adequate. I operate routinely at 87% power and set = the mixture at 70-80dF LOP. **BTW, the TIT=92s ARE CRITICAL, and you=92ll want to watch these while = you=92re fiddling with the EGTs. Continental says the max TIT is 1750 = and the max continuous is 1650. I am more conservative, and have a = =93yellow warning=94 set at 1550 and a =93red alarm=94 set at 1650. As = you lean the engine, TIT=92s will increase with EGTs, and will continue = to increase for a short time after the first EGT peaks are reached, and = then start decreasing. I normally see about 1500 on my TITs in cruise = flight; I lean the mixture more if they go above 1550 in cruise = flight.** I know of no scientific data to support your recommendations of keeping = TITs under 1550. Doing so may keep you 100dF ROP or more, but it is = doing nothing for the life of the turbo. The 1650 TIT limit is for max = rotor speed at max temperature. The turbo may be safely operate at 1649 = all day long without concern. A s a matter of fact, that number is = conservative unless one is at critical altitude. **Continental says the max CHT is 460 degrees. I am pretty convinced = you=92ll cook your cylinders if you operate them anywhere close to that = in normal cruise flight. I have a =93yellow warning=94 set at 400 and a = =93red alarm=94 at 420. I only see these temps during high power climbs = between about 12,000 and 16,000, when the engine is still producing lots = of power but the air is starting to thin/provide fewer molecules to = carry away the heat. In any case, when my CHT=92s get to 420, I increase = the fuel flow (low boost if not already on) , richen the mixture control = (climbing ROP anyway) and/or increase airspeed. As a last resort, I=92d = pull the power back, but have never had to do this=85yet.** Agreed! > **As to CHTs during cruise flight. Get the fuel flow to the cylinders = balanced first=85effectively you are making each cylinder produce = approximately the same amount of power (yields a smoother running = engine)--and heat. Remember that this will be optimized only for a small = range of power/RPM settings. Then go to work on balancing the CHTs. This = is (at least theoretically) much easier than balancing the fuel flows = and EGT peaks because you can do many things to change the cooling air = flow across the cylinders--and that=92s the only variable IF you=92ve = balanced the fuel flow/cylinder power output. Working CHT=92s first just = won=92t yield good results=85you=92ll wind up doing it over and over=85** That's excellent advice. > =20 > Back to precautions you asked about: > 1) If you=92re running LOP, be sure you have the engine producing = less than 75% of its rated power; below 65% if you=92re conservative. WHY??? > 2) Be sure that every cylinder is LOP and that the hottest EGT is = at least 30 degrees below the cylinder=92s max EGT (without = consideration of the actual value, nor the values of any other cylinder) That depends on the power being produced. > 3) Keep the TITs below 1650 degrees; ideally below 1550. No scientific reason for this recommendation = concerning 1550. > 4) Keep the CHT=92s below 420; ideally below 400 (If you do the = above things, they will likely be in the 300-340 degree range) Excellent advice. >=20 I hope my response has improved your appreciation of the issues. If I = can expound on any of these, feel free to ask. You would benefit = significantly by taking the APS class as all of these things will be = shown with data to support what I have said above. Best regards, Walter Atkinson Advanced Pilot Seminars --Apple-Mail=_333159D5-642D-4505-B1AF-4C44C55EF0C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Walter Atkinson





On Jun 27, 2013, at 7:19 = AM, Colyn Case wrote:

Walter,

Can = you please elaborate on:
The turbo may be safely operate at 1649 all = day long without concern.  A s a matter of fact, that number is = conservative unless = one is at critical = altitude.

I'm specifically wondering = what is changing at critical altitude.   The wastegate is closed, = cooling is minimal, but does TIT not correlate in the same way to = turbine speed?

Colyn

On Jun 27, 2013, = at 9:04 AM, Walter Atkinson wrote:

**To run a TSIO 550 lean of peak, it must be operated = below 75% power.**
Many of = these engines are operated above 75% power as a matter of routine while = controlling CHTs.  This usually requires operating it LOP.  As = Confucius say, "Do not tell man something impossible when he already do = it!" <g>

**but it=92s important that you know--and operate the = engine at lower power settings--if you want to run LOP.There is = absolutely NO reason not to operate the engine LOP at high power = settings.  Literally, thousands of pilots are doing so quite = successfully.

**When you run rich of peak, some of the fuel is used = directly for cooling and passes through the engine without burning. As a = matter of course, it cools by evaporation, and leaves nasty lead and = other deposits behind=85on plugs, valves, etc. **
The heat of vaporization of any extra fuel in a ROP = mixture is not even a blip on the radar screen in BTUs available for = cooling.  The reason a richer mixture runs cooler than, say 50dF = ROP, is that the richer mixture burns slower placing the thetaPP further = from TDC.  This results in lower internal cylinder pressures and = fewer BTUs transferred across the thermal boundary layer.  Extra = fuel does NOT cool a cylinder.  A full rich mixture relying on heat = of vaporization for cooling would not be 1 degree = cooler!

**So when you run LOP and eliminate this source of = cooling, you must offset it by either reducing power (total heat = produced) or increasing cooling (better baffling). = **
When LOP, the leaner mixture = slows the burn even mores than a richer mixture and cooling is even = better.  It is possible, therefore, to operate at higher power = settings LOP with the same CHTs as ROP, or at the same power setting = with cooler CHTs.

**So as you lean the mixture toward max cylinder EGT, = you=92re reducing the amount of fuel available for cooling and the CHT=92s= go up.**
No. =  See above.

**With most Continental engines, this doesn=92t = happen at the same fuel flow for all cylinders, that is, one cylinder = reaches peak EGT at a given fuel flow (around 16-17 GPH if you=92re = running about 65% power) as you lean, while the other cylinders are = still rich of peak EGT. You need to note the fuel flow when the first = cylinder reaches peak EGT. As you continue to lean, the EGT (and CHT to = a lesser extent) of the first to peak starts going down, while the = remaining cylinder EGTs (and CHTs) continue to go up. Eventually, all = cylinders reach peak EGT and start decreasing. Note the fuel flow when = the last cylinder reaches peak EGT and just starts to decrease. The = difference in fuel flow between first and last cylinder EGT to peak is = the =93GAMI lean test.=94 Ideally, the fuel flow between first and last = should be less than 1 GPH; use of GAMIs can tune this to less than half = a gallon per hour, BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS OPTIMIZED FOR ONLY ONE = POWER/RPM setting, so you should test/set up the engine at the = normally-expected cruise power setting.**
Well, sort of. =  You have correctly explained the GAMI Lean Test.  The spread = between the first and last to peak in GPH is called the GAMI Spread. =  1gph is pretty poor.  GAMI shoots for a Spread of 0.3 and = most engines will run "smooth enough" with a Gami Spread of 0.5 or = below.  While the GAMIjectors were originally "optimized at 2300rpm = (not any particular power setting) testing has shown them to remain = quite well balanced along a wide range of rpms and power settings. =  The GAMI Spread will change very little UNLESS you have induction = leaks.
mis-firing. My cylinders start mis-firing at about 120 degrees LOP as a reference = point. Mine are well enough balanced (no GAMIs) that I can operate the = richest cylinder at 60 degrees LOP and the leanest cylinder (first to = peak when leaning) will remain below 100 degrees LOP. That equates to = about a 0.5 GPH fuel flow difference FOR MY ENGINE=85but this varies a = lot from engine to engine, and with the power/RPM setting.How far = LOP one should set the mixture is dependent upon the power being = produced, not some magic number that always works.  For example, at = 65% power, 20dF LOP is adequate.  I operate routinely at 87% power = and set the mixture at 70-80dF LOP.
**BTW, the TIT=92s = ARE CRITICAL, and you=92ll want to watch these while you=92re fiddling = with the EGTs. Continental says the max TIT is 1750 and the max = continuous is 1650. I am more conservative, and have a =93yellow = warning=94 set at 1550 and a =93red alarm=94 set at 1650. As you lean = the engine, TIT=92s will increase with EGTs, and will continue to = increase for a short time after the first EGT peaks are reached, and = then start decreasing. I normally see about 1500 on my TITs in cruise = flight; I lean the mixture more if they go above 1550 in cruise = flight.**
I know of no scientific data to support your = recommendations of keeping TITs under 1550.  Doing so may keep you = 100dF ROP or more, but it is doing nothing for the life of the turbo. =  The 1650 TIT limit is for max rotor speed at max temperature. =  The turbo may be safely operate at 1649 all day long without = concern.  A s a matter of fact, that number is conservative unless = one is at critical altitude.

**Continental says = the max CHT is 460 degrees. I am pretty convinced you=92ll cook your = cylinders if you operate them anywhere close to that in normal cruise = flight. I have a =93yellow warning=94 set at 400 and a =93red alarm=94 = at 420. I only see these temps during high power climbs between about = 12,000 and 16,000, when the engine is still producing lots of power but = the air is starting to thin/provide fewer molecules to carry away the = heat. In any case, when my CHT=92s get to 420, I increase the fuel flow = (low boost if not already on) , richen the mixture control (climbing ROP = anyway) and/or increase airspeed. As a last resort, I=92d pull the power = back, but have never had to do this=85yet.**

**As to CHTs = during cruise flight. Get the fuel flow to the cylinders balanced = first=85effectively you are making each cylinder produce approximately = the same amount of power (yields a smoother running engine)--and heat. = Remember that this will be optimized only for a small range of power/RPM = settings. Then go to work on balancing the CHTs. This is (at least = theoretically) much easier than balancing the fuel flows and EGT peaks = because you can do many things to change the cooling air flow across the = cylinders--and that=92s the only variable IF you=92ve balanced the fuel = flow/cylinder power output. Working CHT=92s first just won=92t yield = good results=85you=92ll wind up doing it over and = over=85**
That's excellent = advice.


 
Back to precautions you asked = about:
1) If you=92re running LOP, be sure you = have the engine producing less than 75% of its rated power; below 65% if = you=92re conservative.
= WHY???

2) Be sure that every cylinder is LOP = and that the hottest EGT is at least 30 degrees below the cylinder=92s = max EGT (without consideration of the actual value, nor the values of = any other cylinder)
That depends on = the power being produced.

3) Keep the TITs below 1650 degrees; = ideally below 1550.
No scientific = reason for this recommendation concerning = 1550.

4)      Keep the CHT=92s below 420; ideally = below 400 (If you do the above things, they will likely be in the = 300-340 degree range)
= Excellent advice.

I hope my response has improved = your appreciation of the issues.  If I can expound on any of these, = feel free to ask.  You would benefit significantly by taking the = APS class as all of these things will be shown with data to support what = I have said above.

Best = regards,

Walter Atkinson
Advanced = Pilot = Seminars



= --Apple-Mail=_333159D5-642D-4505-B1AF-4C44C55EF0C8--