X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com ([216.32.180.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6352464 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:46:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.32.180.31; envelope-from=rpastusek@htii.com Received: from mail117-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.238) by VA3EHSOBE009.bigfish.com (10.7.40.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:51 +0000 Received: from mail117-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail117-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03018400B0 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.245.5;KIP:(null);UIP:(null);IPV:NLI;H:CH1PRD0710HT004.namprd07.prod.outlook.com;RD:none;EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 6 X-BigFish: PS6(zz9371Ic85fh1454Ia9c8pzz1f42h1ee6h1de0h1fdah1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1fc6hzz8275ch1d7338h17326ah18c673h8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h1504h1537h153bh15d0h162dh1631h1758h18e1h1946h19b5h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1bceh1d07h1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1de9h1dfeh1dffh1e1dh1155h) Received-SPF: pass (mail117-va3: domain of htii.com designates 157.56.245.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.245.5; envelope-from=rpastusek@htii.com; helo=CH1PRD0710HT004.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ;.outlook.com ; Received: from mail117-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail117-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1372387547743214_14598; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.243]) by mail117-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B6460051 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0710HT004.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.5) by VA3EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (10.7.99.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:47 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0710MB367.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.11.72]) by CH1PRD0710HT004.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.152.39]) with mapi id 14.16.0324.000; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:46 +0000 From: Robert R Pastusek To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: RE: [LML] Re: GAMI test Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: GAMI test Thread-Index: AQHOczbxbTi5Ha14qkqtdkFS15gSFJlJ8fYw Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 02:45:46 +0000 Message-ID: <41361035E6613244A377D5AC3BF5EFDD5873332C@CH1PRD0710MB367.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [96.241.131.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_41361035E6613244A377D5AC3BF5EFDD5873332CCH1PRD0710MB367_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: rpastusek@htii.com X-OriginatorOrg: htii.com --_000_41361035E6613244A377D5AC3BF5EFDD5873332CCH1PRD0710MB367_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothing like being put in one's place by an expert. I accept all comments w= ith humble appreciation. Bob From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Walt= er Atkinson Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:05 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: GAMI test Bob: Based on hard data, there are some significant misstatements in your post. = I will comment in line. **To run a TSIO 550 lean of peak, it must be operated below 75% power.** Many of these engines are operated above 75% power as a matter of routine w= hile controlling CHTs. This usually requires operating it LOP. As Confuci= us say, "Do not tell man something impossible when he already do it!" **but it's important that you know--and operate the engine at lower power s= ettings--if you want to run LOP. ** There is absolutely NO reason not to operate the engine LOP at high power s= ettings. Literally, thousands of pilots are doing so quite successfully. **When you run rich of peak, some of the fuel is used directly for cooling = and passes through the engine without burning. As a matter of course, it co= ols by evaporation, and leaves nasty lead and other deposits behind...on pl= ugs, valves, etc. ** The heat of vaporization of any extra fuel in a ROP mixture is not even a b= lip on the radar screen in BTUs available for cooling. The reason a richer= mixture runs cooler than, say 50dF ROP, is that the richer mixture burns s= lower placing the thetaPP further from TDC. This results in lower internal= cylinder pressures and fewer BTUs transferred across the thermal boundary = layer. Extra fuel does NOT cool a cylinder. A full rich mixture relying o= n heat of vaporization for cooling would not be 1 degree cooler! **So when you run LOP and eliminate this source of cooling, you must offset= it by either reducing power (total heat produced) or increasing cooling (b= etter baffling). ** When LOP, the leaner mixture slows the burn even mores than a richer mixtur= e and cooling is even better. It is possible, therefore, to operate at hig= her power settings LOP with the same CHTs as ROP, or at the same power sett= ing with cooler CHTs. **So as you lean the mixture toward max cylinder EGT, you're reducing the a= mount of fuel available for cooling and the CHT's go up.** No. See above. **With most Continental engines, this doesn't happen at the same fuel flow = for all cylinders, that is, one cylinder reaches peak EGT at a given fuel f= low (around 16-17 GPH if you're running about 65% power) as you lean, while= the other cylinders are still rich of peak EGT. You need to note the fuel = flow when the first cylinder reaches peak EGT. As you continue to lean, the= EGT (and CHT to a lesser extent) of the first to peak starts going down, w= hile the remaining cylinder EGTs (and CHTs) continue to go up. Eventually, = all cylinders reach peak EGT and start decreasing. Note the fuel flow when = the last cylinder reaches peak EGT and just starts to decrease. The differe= nce in fuel flow between first and last cylinder EGT to peak is the "GAMI l= ean test." Ideally, the fuel flow between first and last should be less tha= n 1 GPH; use of GAMIs can tune this to less than half a gallon per hour, BU= T NOTE THAT THIS IS OPTIMIZED FOR ONLY ONE POWER/RPM setting, so you should= test/set up the engine at the normally-expected cruise power setting.** Well, sort of. You have correctly explained the GAMI Lean Test. The sprea= d between the first and last to peak in GPH is called the GAMI Spread. 1gp= h is pretty poor. GAMI shoots for a Spread of 0.3 and most engines will ru= n "smooth enough" with a Gami Spread of 0.5 or below. While the GAMIjector= s were originally "optimized at 2300rpm (not any particular power setting) = testing has shown them to remain quite well balanced along a wide range of = rpms and power settings. The GAMI Spread will change very little UNLESS yo= u have induction leaks. **Here's the rub: You need to be sure all cylinders are at least 30 degrees= below their peak EGT when operating the engine in cruise power, and this i= s critically important when LOP. Ideally, all cylinders are all operating a= t about the same amount below their individual peak EGTs, but the actual te= mperatures are not significant...it's the peak value and delta below--for e= ach cylinder--that's significant. If the fuel flow is not well balanced amo= ng the cylinders, the first to peak EGT will get so lean by the time that y= ou get the last to 30 degrees below peak EGT that the first to peak starts = mis-firing. My cylinders start mis-firing at about 120 degrees LOP as a ref= erence point. Mine are well enough balanced (no GAMIs) that I can operate t= he richest cylinder at 60 degrees LOP and the leanest cylinder (first to pe= ak when leaning) will remain below 100 degrees LOP. That equates to about a= 0.5 GPH fuel flow difference FOR MY ENGINE...but this varies a lot from en= gine to engine, and with the power/RPM setting. ** How far LOP one should set the mixture is dependent upon the power being pr= oduced, not some magic number that always works. For example, at 65% power= , 20dF LOP is adequate. I operate routinely at 87% power and set the mixtu= re at 70-80dF LOP. **BTW, the TIT's ARE CRITICAL, and you'll want to watch these while you're = fiddling with the EGTs. Continental says the max TIT is 1750 and the max co= ntinuous is 1650. I am more conservative, and have a "yellow warning" set a= t 1550 and a "red alarm" set at 1650. As you lean the engine, TIT's will in= crease with EGTs, and will continue to increase for a short time after the = first EGT peaks are reached, and then start decreasing. I normally see abou= t 1500 on my TITs in cruise flight; I lean the mixture more if they go abov= e 1550 in cruise flight.** I know of no scientific data to support your recommendations of keeping TIT= s under 1550. Doing so may keep you 100dF ROP or more, but it is doing not= hing for the life of the turbo. The 1650 TIT limit is for max rotor speed = at max temperature. The turbo may be safely operate at 1649 all day long w= ithout concern. A s a matter of fact, that number is conservative unless o= ne is at critical altitude. **Continental says the max CHT is 460 degrees. I am pretty convinced you'll= cook your cylinders if you operate them anywhere close to that in normal c= ruise flight. I have a "yellow warning" set at 400 and a "red alarm" at 420= . I only see these temps during high power climbs between about 12,000 and = 16,000, when the engine is still producing lots of power but the air is sta= rting to thin/provide fewer molecules to carry away the heat. In any case, = when my CHT's get to 420, I increase the fuel flow (low boost if not alread= y on) , richen the mixture control (climbing ROP anyway) and/or increase ai= rspeed. As a last resort, I'd pull the power back, but have never had to do= this...yet.** Agreed! **As to CHTs during cruise flight. Get the fuel flow to the cylinders balan= ced first...effectively you are making each cylinder produce approximately = the same amount of power (yields a smoother running engine)--and heat. Reme= mber that this will be optimized only for a small range of power/RPM settin= gs. Then go to work on balancing the CHTs. This is (at least theoretically)= much easier than balancing the fuel flows and EGT peaks because you can do= many things to change the cooling air flow across the cylinders--and that'= s the only variable IF you've balanced the fuel flow/cylinder power output.= Working CHT's first just won't yield good results...you'll wind up doing i= t over and over...** That's excellent advice. Back to precautions you asked about: 1) If you're running LOP, be sure you have the engine producing less t= han 75% of its rated power; below 65% if you're conservative. WHY??? 2) Be sure that every cylinder is LOP and that the hottest EGT is at l= east 30 degrees below the cylinder's max EGT (without consideration of the = actual value, nor the values of any other cylinder) That depends on the power being produce= d. 3) Keep the TITs below 1650 degrees; ideally below 1550. No scientific reason for this recommend= ation concerning 1550. 4) Keep the CHT's below 420; ideally below 400 (If you do the above th= ings, they will likely be in the 300-340 degree range) Excellent advice. I hope my response has improved your appreciation of the issues. If I can = expound on any of these, feel free to ask. You would benefit significantly= by taking the APS class as all of these things will be shown with data to = support what I have said above. Best regards, Walter Atkinson Advanced Pilot Seminars --_000_41361035E6613244A377D5AC3BF5EFDD5873332CCH1PRD0710MB367_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nothing like being put in one’s place by an e= xpert. I accept all comments with humble appreciation.


Bob

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Walter Atk= inson
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:05 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: GAMI test

 

Bob:

 

Based on hard data, there are some significant misstatement= s in your post.  I will comment in line.


**To run a TSIO 550 lean of pea= k, it must be operated below 75% power.**

Many of these engines are ope= rated above 75% power as a matter of routine while controlling CHTs.  This usually requires operating it LOP.  As Confucius say, &quo= t;Do not tell man something impossible when he already do it!" <g&g= t;

 

**but it’= s important that you know--and operate the engine at lower power settings--= if you want to run LOP. **

There is absolutely NO reason= not to operate the engine LOP at high power settings.  Literally, tho= usands of pilots are doing so quite successfully.

 

**When you run = rich of peak, some of the fuel is used directly for cooling and passes through the engine without burning. As a matter of course, it cools by eva= poration, and leaves nasty lead and other deposits behind…on plugs, v= alves, etc. **

The heat of vaporization of a= ny extra fuel in a ROP mixture is not even a blip on the radar screen in BTUs available for cooling.  The reason a richer mixture runs cool= er than, say 50dF ROP, is that the richer mixture burns slower placing the = thetaPP further from TDC.  This results in lower internal cylinder pre= ssures and fewer BTUs transferred across the thermal boundary layer.  Extra fuel does NOT cool a cylinder.  A= full rich mixture relying on heat of vaporization for cooling would not be= 1 degree cooler!

 

**So when you r= un LOP and eliminate this source of cooling, you must offset it by either reducing power (total heat produced) or increasing cooling (better bafflin= g). **

When LOP, the leaner mixture = slows the burn even mores than a richer mixture and cooling is even better.  It is possible, therefore, to operate at higher power settin= gs LOP with the same CHTs as ROP, or at the same power setting with cooler = CHTs.

 

**So as you lea= n the mixture toward max cylinder EGT, you’re reducing the amount of fuel available for cooling and the CHT’s go up.**<= /span>

No.  See above.

 

**With most Con= tinental engines, this doesn’t happen at the same fuel flow for all cylinders, that is, one cylinder reaches peak EGT at a given fuel flow (ar= ound 16-17 GPH if you’re running about 65% power) as you lean, while = the other cylinders are still rich of peak EGT. You need to note the fuel f= low when the first cylinder reaches peak EGT. As you continue to lean, the EGT (and CHT to a lesser extent) of the = first to peak starts going down, while the remaining cylinder EGTs (and CHT= s) continue to go up. Eventually, all cylinders reach peak EGT and start de= creasing. Note the fuel flow when the last cylinder reaches peak EGT and just starts to decrease. The differ= ence in fuel flow between first and last cylinder EGT to peak is the “= ;GAMI lean test.” Ideally, the fuel flow between first and last shoul= d be less than 1 GPH; use of GAMIs can tune this to less than half a gallon per hour, BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS OPTIMIZED = FOR ONLY ONE POWER/RPM setting, so you should test/set up the engine at the= normally-expected cruise power setting.**

**Here’s = the rub: You need to be sure all cylinders are at least 30 degrees below th= eir peak EGT when operating the engine in cruise power, and this is critically= important when LOP. Ideally, all cylinders are all operating at about the = same amount below their individual peak EGTs, but the actual temperatures a= re not significant…it’s the peak value and delta below--for each cylinder--that’s significant. If the= fuel flow is not well balanced among the cylinders, the first to peak EGT = will get so lean by the time that you get the last to 30 degrees below peak= EGT that the first to peak starts mis-firing. My cylinders start mis-firing at about 120 degrees LOP as a reference point. Mine are well enough balanc= ed (no GAMIs) that I can operate the richest cylinder at 60 degrees LOP and= the leanest cylinder (first to peak when leaning) will remain below 100 de= grees LOP. That equates to about a 0.5 GPH fuel flow difference FOR MY ENGINE…but this varies a lot f= rom engine to engine, and with the power/RPM setting. **=

How far LOP one should set th= e mixture is dependent upon the power being produced, not some magic number that always works.  For example, at 65% power, 20dF LOP is ade= quate.  I operate routinely at 87% power and set the mixture at 70-80d= F LOP.

 

**BTW, the TIT’s ARE CRITICAL, and you’ll want to watch these while y= ou’re fiddling with the EGTs. Continental says the max TIT is 1750 an= d the max continuous is 1650. I am more conservative, and have a “yel= low warning” set at 1550 and a “red alarm” set at 1650. As you lean the engine, TIT’s will increase with EGTs, and will cont= inue to increase for a short time after the first EGT peaks are reached, an= d then start decreasing. I normally see about 1500 on my TITs in cruise fli= ght; I lean the mixture more if they go above 1550 in cruise flight.**

I know of no scientific data = to support your recommendations of keeping TITs under 1550.  Doing so may keep you 100dF ROP or more, but it is doing nothing for the life of th= e turbo.  The 1650 TIT limit is for max rotor speed at max temperature= .  The turbo may be safely operate at 1649 all day long without concer= n.  A s a matter of fact, that number is conservative unless one is at critical altitude.


**Continental says the max CHT is 460 degrees. I am pretty convinced you’ll cook y= our cylinders if you operate them anywhere close to that in normal cruise f= light. I have a “yellow warning” set at 400 and a “red al= arm” at 420. I only see these temps during high power climbs between about 12,000 and 16,000, when the engine is still producing lots o= f power but the air is starting to thin/provide fewer molecules to carry aw= ay the heat. In any case, when my CHT’s get to 420, I increase the fu= el flow (low boost if not already on) , richen the mixture control (climbing ROP anyway) and/or increase airspee= d. As a last resort, I’d pull the power back, but have never had to d= o this…yet.**

Agreed!



**As to CHTs duri= ng cruise flight. Get the fuel flow to the cylinders balanced first…e= ffectively you are making each cylinder produce approximately the same amount of powe= r (yields a smoother running engine)--and heat. Remember that this will be = optimized only for a small range of power/RPM settings. Then go to work on = balancing the CHTs. This is (at least theoretically) much easier than balancing the fuel flows and EGT pea= ks because you can do many things to change the cooling air flow across the= cylinders--and that’s the only variable IF you’ve balanced the= fuel flow/cylinder power output. Working CHT’s first just won’t yield good results…you’ll wind up doing= it over and over…**

That's excellent advice.





 

Back to precautio= ns you asked about:

1)     <= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> If you’re running LOP, be sure you have the engine producing less than = 75% of its rated power; below 65% if you’re conservative.

            = ;            &n= bsp;           WHY???



2)     <= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> Be sure that every cylinder is LOP and that the hottest EGT is at least 30 de= grees below the cylinder’s max EGT (without consideration of the actu= al value, nor the values of any other cylinder)

            = ;            &n= bsp;           That depends on the power be= ing produced.



3)     <= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> Keep the TITs below 1650 degrees; ideally below 1550.

            = ;            &n= bsp;           No scientific reason for thi= s recommendation concerning 1550.



4)     <= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> Keep the CHT’s below 420; ideally below 400 (If you do the above things, = they will likely be in the 300-340 degree range)

            = ;            &n= bsp;           Excellent advice.



I hope my response has imp= roved your appreciation of the issues.  If I can expound on any of the= se, feel free to ask.  You would benefit significantly by taking the APS class as all of these things will be shown with data to = support what I have said above.



Best regards,

 

Walter Atkinson

Advanced Pilot Seminars

 

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