X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:44:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm16-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.212.253] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5800882 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:18:06 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.212.253; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.153] by nm16.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 15:17:30 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.233] by tm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 15:17:30 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1042.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 15:17:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 342101.32027.bm@omp1042.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 52079 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2012 15:17:29 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:References:In-Reply-To:Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Message-Id:Cc:X-Mailer:From:Subject:Date:To; b=6rYud/xe/CzkuoolDDwdGoJ7igBw9kmzstNsc0qh0eFzzMawzDPAfhBml4Z6JMQNKxQ9eEld6c1v6WcUe/AZRKjMnzSMXpW3xw7UUGAe9rS/TqCzf4FVIpbysH+szKahXRVkHxdjeAI21QZoXYvAfOx4CUFGw0+5Eosp2keAtew= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: kMA4szUVM1m884.JnPCKF5GlmZzep0s1c6LO1IBkxMFKvYF dRnWmJUXYmwaSfzsLIpIB.Gbc_hWKFovj6g9jGauhGeZQuftmoS7ocFlsava 3nIRuOITMGTV7ij4_DWDE8aIfLL5tFgtvs9nOw5nqO.iEFSdRWxtYPJm0rBm xiMLJ7GFhVLH9tH855skoglI85heNjhdIIAy7FsNT0otPoMWfKaXiduMqx.a cUvph70.Spmo7RqEM2zUTyoESOaOEVWBXpKR1W95tPF3n5aruzkipOOKW5y7 k3tBKWjWUoHN_0c.HcXBgjmawzPZlyqXtUVyZl6Xmzq_eenbScsyS39pKJni ocGhPUuuStrim0SMVl_gwGg20M4acNwWhYCvGSgG2icB8QbtPUlreHLmOqPs V28zqjv0E.xvcKM_uKkyIBmibCYaTqUXBGX9iE40QZfuP9tsh6ynZXKLCjdb T7X_X3yCrbSBDdAqxslb_qDU9AQsCiO1fIAUKn3a6Cl0hf9EPFtFW7fR7e7d E8A-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: tg4YEXeswBAq79ZTs5A79J5zDY9lAVNV Received: from [192.168.220.239] (randylsnarr@69.169.190.15 with xymcookie) by smtp123-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 08 Oct 2012 08:17:29 -0700 PDT References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-068B438C-30EE-4712-9124-EB6518F04429 X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9A334) From: Randylsnarr Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Piston oil cooling jets X-Original-Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 09:17:29 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-068B438C-30EE-4712-9124-EB6518F04429 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tom, Pay close attention to the air inlets and transition. You will want that smo= oth. I have also seen large oil coolers mounted directly to the back of the b= affling excessively dump the pressure on the top of the engine which you nee= d to get effective cooling. Anything you can do to seal up the top of the en= gine will reduce drag and cool better. You will want the baffling sealed up t= ight tight tight. Put a shop light under the engine in a dark hangar and sea= l EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only place for your cooling air to go= is through the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the baffling that wraps a= round the cylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tight as well. I would a= lso radius them off instead of 90 degree bends where they are safety wired t= ogether too. Also, the suggestion about closing the nose gear slot with a d= oor is a good one and I am planning to do this as well. There is lots of air= going in there especially at high angles of attack creating pressure in the= lower cowl. This is bad and and it slows you down too. Lastly, I love my plennum. If they are done right, you will go fast and run c= ool. 365 degrees are the norm for me in cruise. Most of this has come from my research and looking carefully at what other g= uys have done .=20 There may not be a magic bullet here. You may have several factors contribut= ing to bad cooling.=20 You should be able to get cool without having to resort to expensive engine m= ods... Look at set ups that are working and keep after it... Good luck.. Randy Snarr N694RS 235/320 Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve wrote: > Tom, > =20 > I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slightl= y bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches and= a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17. If not caref= ul (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeoff/climb out on a hot da= y. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm I can stop the CHTS from going o= ver 400, Once cooled down (stabilized) from the takeoff I can resume full p= ower/climb and manage the temps just fine. I never run my engine over 400 ch= ts. > =20 > I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I ran wide o= pen and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went over 390. T= he oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils nor a Pl= enum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lower CHTS once I build= a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to be upsetting the e= xit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in the future as I clean= -up cooling drag that might allow me to close down inlet and exit air. But f= or now My cooling is fine > =20 > Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great ri= sk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will cause blow-b= y, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is what I wou= ld suspect is your results. > =20 > Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my opio= n. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate exi= t air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if y= ou install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a high pric= e. > =20 > It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders and t= ry the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in the= break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in. > =20 > =20 > =20 > steve alderman 25SA 360 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: N20087 > To: lml > Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am > Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets >=20 > > Folks >=20 > This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum. I would l= ove=20 > your feedback on this=20 >=20 > I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can install p= iston=20 > cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines. The reason being, I hav= e had=20 > to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due t= o=20 > lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as pl= enum,=20 > timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I am=20= > running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out. Th= ey=20 > went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cruise= and=20 > 340 lop >=20 > All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark var= nish=20 > under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from oil= =20 > blowback >=20 > I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart again= =20 > anytime soon after this downturn >=20 > So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the c= ooling=20 > benefits of the piston oil nozzles. Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+ >=20 > Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the clos= ed=20 > case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to th= e=20 > local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble. = The=20 > shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I get= them=20 > to do the breakdown and reassembly=20 >=20 > As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the co= wl=20 > inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and li= mited=20 > benefit. I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2 d= egree=20 > CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure! >=20 > Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20 >=20 > Thanks in advance=20 >=20 > Tom=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l --Apple-Mail-068B438C-30EE-4712-9124-EB6518F04429 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Tom,
Pay close a= ttention to the air inlets and transition. You will want that smooth. I have= also seen large oil coolers mounted directly to the back of the baffling ex= cessively dump the pressure on the top of the engine which you need to get e= ffective cooling. Anything you can do to seal up the top of the engine will r= educe drag and cool better. You will want the baffling sealed up tight tight= tight. Put a shop light under the engine in a dark hangar and seal EVERYTHI= NG with high temp RTV so the only place for your cooling air to go is throug= h the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the baffling that wraps around the c= ylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tight as well. I would also radius t= hem off instead of 90 degree bends where they are safety wired together too.=  Also, the suggestion about closing the nose gear slot with a door is a= good one and I am planning to do this as well. There is lots of air going i= n there especially at high angles of attack creating pressure in the lower c= owl. This is bad and and it slows you down too.
Lastly, I love my plennum= . If they are done right, you will go fast and run cool. 365 degrees are the= norm for me in cruise.

Most of this has come from m= y research and looking carefully at what other guys have done . 
<= div>There may not be a magic bullet here. You may have several factors contr= ibuting to bad cooling. 
You should be able to get cool witho= ut having to resort to expensive engine mods...

Loo= k at set ups that are working and keep after it...
Good luck..

Randy Snarr
N694RS
235/320
Sent= from my iPad

On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve <n5276j@aol.com> wrote:

Tom,
 
I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slig= htly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches&= nbsp;and a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17.=  If not careful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeof= f/climb out on a hot day. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm = ; I can stop the CHTS from going over 400, Once  cooled down (stabilize= d) from the takeoff I can resume full power/climb and manage the temps j= ust fine. I never run my engine over 400 chts.
 
 I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I r= an wide open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went ov= er 390. The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils= nor a Plenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lowe= r CHTS once I build a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to= be upsetting the exit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in th= e future as I clean-up cooling drag that might allow me to close down i= nlet and exit air. But for now My cooling is fine
 
Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great= risk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will caus= e blow-by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is wh= at I would suspect is your results.
 
Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my o= pion. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate e= xit air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if= you install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a hi= gh price.
 
It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders an= d try the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in t= he break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in.
 
 
 
steve alderman   25SA   360



 
-= ----Original Message-----
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>= ;
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am
Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets

> Fo=
lks

This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum.  I would lov=
e=20
your feedback on this=20

I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can install pi=
ston=20
cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines.  The reason being, I have h=
ad=20
to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due to=20=

lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as plen=
um,=20
timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I am=20=

running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out.  They=
=20
went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cruise a=
nd=20
340 lop

All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark varni=
sh=20
under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from oil=20=

blowback

I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart again=20=

anytime soon after this downturn

So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the coo=
ling=20
benefits of the piston oil nozzles.  Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+

Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the closed=
=20
case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to the=20=

local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble.  T=
he=20
shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I get t=
hem=20
to do the breakdown and reassembly=20

As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the cowl=
=20
inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and limi=
ted=20
benefit.  I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2 deg=
ree=20
CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure!

Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20

Thanks in advance=20

Tom=20



--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/Lis=
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