X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:02:39 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-db01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTP id 5651161 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:36:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.95; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.140]) by imr-db01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q6DNZeU5022769 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:35:40 -0400 Received: from core-mtd004c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtd004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.235.205]) by mtaomg-da04.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id A0523E000087 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:35:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <9293a.17c7ff9.3d320aca@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: TAS for Red Line X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9293a.17c7ff9.3d320aca_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:485047232:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338c5000b0cb2f25 --part1_9293a.17c7ff9.3d320aca_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Yeah.... =20 =20 In a message dated 7/13/2012 5:29:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 pjdmiller@gmail.com writes: Turbines typically get Vno and not a Vne. That has Mach implications for= =20 the high flyers and Mmo takes over depending on which is reached first. = =20 For the TBM 700 I fly Vno is 266 and we get there only on full power=20 descents, not in cruise. Because of max altitude restrictions, the max M= mo is=20 not an issue for us and not listed in the POH. I'm *guessing* the same= =20 issue goes for the IV-P? If you were able to go higher then Mmo might be= come =20 an issue and be listed if you had sufficient power and it differed from the= =20 Vmo limits. It sounds like the 276 KIAS limit probably takes all those = =20 factors into account with a single safe number albeit close to what you=20 cruise at and possibly always under the Mmo figure. =20 Paul Legacy, Calgary On 2012-07-13, at 1:58 PM, Bob Rickard wrote: My IV-P shows a red line on the Chelton system at 276 KIAS. The POH says= =20 the same. I have been close to there more than a few times, which means i= f=20 it is meant to be TAS I have been WAY over that. I highly doubt Jeff=20 Edwards messed that up when getting the flight certificate on my airplane.= =20 Can't be right, I can almost cruise at 270 KTAS at FL250. Definitely not = a=20 universal rule. Bob R On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Charles Brown <_browncc1@verizon.net_=20 (mailto:browncc1@verizon.net) > wrote: Well that's interesting. FAR Part 23 (airworthiness standards for normal,= =20 utility, acrobatic and commuter airplanes) Section 1545 (airspeed=20 indicator) says that the airspeed indicator must be marked with a red line= at Vne=20 (that would be an indicated airspeed) and that if Vne varies with altitude= ,=20 there must be a way of indicating Vne to the pilot throughout the envelope= .=20 For airplanes operating at Mach numbers where compressibility matters=20 (not Lancairs), Vmo is defined in Equivalent airspeed, which is still very= =20 close to IAS, and there has to be a way of showing the variation of Vmo/Mm= o=20 with altitude and Mach number. I've never met a light aircraft instrument system that had a primary =20 airspeed indicator with anything *other* than IAS, and just one redline va= lue. =20 The Garmin 900, and I guess other EFISs, also read TAS but not on a big=20 pretty scale with a redline. You can set the redline on the airspeed tape= =20 conservatively so that it's below the lowest TAS for flutter at any altitu= de;=20 then you give away a few knots at lower altitudes. How many folks spend any time at redline? I've never gotten anywhere near= =20 it in my Legacy. Charley Brown Legacy #299 130 hr On Jul 12, 2012, at 9:26 PM, Steve Colwell wrote: =20 Having coffee with some high time pilots this morning, the subject of=20 Never Exceed Speed came up. Before I read the original Van=E2=80=99s arti= cle years=20 ago, I thought Indicated Airspeed was the indicator=E2=80=A6 WRONG, it is= True=20 Airspeed. Does your EFIS display TAS or do you have a table for referenc= e??=20 =20 _http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf_=20 (http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) =20 =20 Steve Colwell Legacy =3D --part1_9293a.17c7ff9.3d320aca_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Yeah....
 
In a message dated 7/13/2012 5:29:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 pjdmiller@gmail.com writes:
= Turbines=20 typically get Vno and not a Vne.   That has Mach implications for th= e=20 high flyers and Mmo takes over depending on which is reached first.  = ;For=20 the TBM 700 I fly Vno is 266 and we get there only on full power descents= , not=20 in cruise.   Because of max altitude restrictions, the max Mmo is no= t an=20 issue for us and not listed in the POH.   I'm *guessing* the same is= sue=20 goes for the IV-P?   If you were able to go higher then Mmo might be= come=20 an issue and be listed if you had sufficient power and it differed from t= he=20 Vmo limits.  It sounds like the 276 KIAS limit probably takes all th= ose=20 factors into account with a single safe number albeit close to what you c= ruise=20 at and possibly always under the Mmo figure.=20

Paul
Legacy, Calgary
On 2012-07-13, at 1:58 PM, Bob Rickard wrote:
My IV-P shows a red line on the Chelton system at 276 KIAS.  = The=20 POH says the same.  I have been close to there more than a few tim= es,=20 which means if it is meant to be TAS I have been WAY over that.  I= =20 highly doubt Jeff Edwards messed that up when getting the flight certif= icate=20 on my airplane.  Can't be right, I can almost cruise at 270 KTAS a= t=20 FL250.  Definitely not a universal rule.

Bob R



On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net>=20 wrote:

Well that's interesting.  FAR Part 23 (airworthiness standa= rds=20 for normal, utility, acrobatic and commuter airplanes) Section 1545= =20 (airspeed indicator) says that the airspeed indicator must be marked = with=20 a red line at Vne (that would be an indicated airspeed) and that if V= ne=20 varies with altitude, there must be a way of indicating Vne to the pi= lot=20 throughout the envelope.  For airplanes operating at Mach number= s=20 where compressibility matters (not Lancairs), Vmo is defined in Equiv= alent=20 airspeed, which is still very close to IAS, and there has to be a way= of=20 showing the variation of Vmo/Mmo with altitude and Mach number.

I've never met a light aircraft instrument system that had a pri= mary=20 airspeed indicator with anything *other* than IAS, and just one redli= ne=20 value.  The Garmin 900, and I guess other EFISs, also read TAS b= ut=20 not on a big pretty scale with a redline.  You can set the redli= ne on=20 the airspeed tape conservatively so that it's below the lowest TAS fo= r=20 flutter at any altitude; then you give away a few knots at lower=20 altitudes.

How many folks spend any time at redline?  I've never gotte= n=20 anywhere near it in my Legacy.

Charley Brown
Legacy #299  130 hr


On Jul 12, 2012, at 9:26 PM, Steve Colwell wrote:
Having coffee with some high time pil= ots=20 this morning, the subject of Never Exceed Speed came up.  Before= I=20 read the original Van=E2=80=99s article years ago, I thought Indicate= d Airspeed=20 was the indicator=E2=80=A6  WRONG, it is True Airspeed.  Do= es your EFIS=20 display TAS or do you have a table for=20 reference?? 
 
http://www.vans= aircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf 
 
Steve Colwell =20 Legacy


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