X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 10:25:56 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm27-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with SMTP id 5522582 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 May 2012 09:24:15 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.187; envelope-from=charliekohler@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.50] by nm27.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2012 13:23:38 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.162] by tm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2012 13:23:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1063.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2012 13:23:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 901070.60718.bm@omp1063.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 39298 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2012 13:23:38 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=NJA/yYza07Xzcr1Ab7G1jb05PwJZpZv2d3YYJI7UNRZCLeWlTo9Y4acaiAkxzBorXnZ6sQgOguGvXQkc6lTLmDcGFGQSKu7Gk+mFQDMyhWMamEeRGXSihhKKYaB7x1Q/O0CjWZg7dbLl14PgCI2Fievedr/xe/KmV/jbXP8tsW0=; X-YMail-OSG: gCvuUwwVM1mNBjLI.9RvmLA7ht.HdjqPx1oJ2PI62eiZdlJ Dt3PCjBlRNuoAcu.04OuxQj8o2WORo9s_SSaPqOnjp.pp6qdZr5dxAr9RN7G wDa3ciQtEWyOkSpi_g9yTw7iJe3MvM0GQ02iwqSfPWqB5eV1fAnf.3GM5ueT 95BwYfHVotYJ5xOB893X1QWRTwU0W7nOaAPwrZhx4Hb14KUcXuVQbCLVb2DN 1rbvkhnnxRuxp.TeCAjTsdcFvmcrX3rLqJfuiT2FUAoqijTS32Ct4KJM3dat haZivUd8Yf2TMq5_dTYNcV_r_gB3eMIguNWXQmq2.K3Jr_vhm.wLAXm3JiEW eHSpbYoaNpttdc8LyG4krC01BfZobNQ5nDqxpi1ihe9RasbhYXxwPJwm5Hhm 6YoL2jxlsfYrdHn1ocNF.OZB5jtXKsapSaebjYjIhEUjfjz4zkC6U5hgLaio cbREyej7oCClj3XYyjVd7i761eTJoEAz6rxZ4e6gPeaKTj4U8ovVRFabOfZ0 _esg.P9DTR8rcYIFtQgDNci2dlK2zJMl9T.diUQuwMg-- Received: from [72.189.192.203] by web126005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 04 May 2012 06:23:38 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.117.340979 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1336137818.37667.YahooMailNeo@web126005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 06:23:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Charlie Kohler Reply-To: Charlie Kohler Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1833503604-1260531101-1336137818=:37667" --1833503604-1260531101-1336137818=:37667 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi Colyn=0A=0AYes-it worked out fine. By that- I mean- it was the best you = can do. =0A=0AIn the beginning, The pressurized IVs had the cabin intercool= er located on the side of the left lower cowling- with louvers. The intake = air was taken from the engine air cleaner box. Even after moving the interc= ooler to the front/left side the air (thanks Don) into the cabin was measur= ed at 105=C2=B0on the 70=C2=B0 day.=0A=0AWhat I didn't say in the post yest= erday was that selecting 11,000 feet on the controller put an electrical si= gnal to the outflow valve to open it wide open. You also could use the "dum= p" switch to open the valve. That helps a lot. But the big Issue is to shut= off that 105=C2=B0 air from entering the cabin.=0A=0AI liked the idea of t= he Airflow design--but I heard stories of airspeed penalties with the P51 s= coop. I asked Bill Genevro if he had ever considered doing wind tunnel test= ing.Then they did-- at Ohio University. They tucked the condenser up closer= to the fuselage and drag reduced drastically. I bought his system. At that= time there was no choice.=C2=A0 I did testing later and saw less than thre= e knot change--. The only holes cut in the fuselage was a pair of 1 inch ho= les for freon in and out of the condenser. The beautiful part of it, is tha= t --it works. Very well! In all regimes.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ACharlie K.=0A=C2=A0= =0ASee me on the web at =0Awww.Lancair-IV.com=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A=0A____________= ____________________=0A From: Colyn Case =0ATo: lm= l@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Friday, May 4, 2012 8:08 AM=0ASubject: [LML] R= e: Necessity of A/C in IV-P?=0A =0A=0ACharlie, how did that work out? =C2= =A0 You eventually added the airflow systems unit right?=0ADoes that requir= e a hole through the fuselage floor?=0A=0A=0AOn May 3, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ch= arlie Kohler wrote:=0A=0ALML gang=0A=0AIn the years before AC was available= , I developed a plan for Summer (hot) flying. On take off I set the control= ler to 11,000 feet with the Pressurized air to the cabin OFF. I opened the = air valve from the fresh air from the vertical stabilizer. =0A=0A=0AI took = off and climbed to 11,000 feet . At 10,000 feet I closed the fresh aHim him= ir from the vertical stabilizer and gradually selected the pressurized air = to the cabin to the ON position. Then as I continued to climb I selected th= e cruise altitude on the pressurization controller and adjusted the rate kn= ob to 200 feet a minute descent. The cabin would then descend and level off= 1000 feet above selected altitude.=0AOn the descent into the landing airpo= rt-- I set the controller to 1000 feet above field elevation. =0A=0A=0AComp= licated maybe--but it=C2=A0 kept the hot turbocharged air out of the cabin = until it was necessary.=0A=0A=C2=A0=0ACharlie K.=0A=C2=A0=0ASee me on the w= eb at =0Awww.Lancair-IV.com=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A=0A______________________________= __=0A From: Jim Nordin =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.n= et =0ASent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:28 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Necessity of A/C= in IV-P?=0A =0A=0A =0AIt can be really warn even at 17,000 feet=0Awithout = A/C in an IV-PT. Why? The bleed air is super warm. Absolutely=0Anecessary? = Not IMHO. But a few letdowns from 20k+ and a drip drip drip off the=0Aend o= f your nose will tell you it=E2=80=99s nice. Or in summer heat in Houston,= =0APhoenix or some other sauna, it is even better than nice.=0AWouldn=E2=80= =99t it be good to use that air=0Ato air heat exchanger in line with the bl= eed air to the cabin? HEAVY.=0AJim=0A=0A________________________________=0A= =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=0A= Of Dan & Kari Olsen=0ASent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012=0A11:05 AM=0ATo: lml@la= ncaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Necessity of A/C in=0AIV-P?=0A=C2=A0=0ALML= =0AGang,=0A=C2=A0=0AWith=0Aall the discussion of structural integrity compr= omises of the IV-P fuselage by=0Acutting air conditioning holes, I have a q= uestion for you seasoned IV-P=0Adrivers=E2=80=A6=C2=A0 How necessary is air= conditioning in this aircraft?=0A=C2=A0=0AI=0Ahave been flying my 320 for = almost 9 years now and certainly would love to have=0Ahad it during ground = operations on hot summer days with the green house=0Acanopy.=C2=A0 However,= once moving and at altitude, there is no need.=C2=A0 I=0Arealize that the = IV-P is going to have warmer air because of the pressurization=0Abut it is = also typically flying much higher (colder ambient) and it=0Adoesn=E2=80=99t= have the bubble canopy.=0A=C2=A0=0ASo,=0Ain normal cross country cruise op= erations above FL180, do any of you that=0Adon=E2=80=99t have A/C *really* = wish=0Athat you had it?=0A=C2=A0=0AI=E2=80=99m=0Aearly in the building of m= y IV-P and don=E2=80=99t want to put it in for several=0Areasons:=0A=C2=B7= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Weight=0A=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Potential structural issues=0A=C2= =B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cost=0A=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One more thing to break down the ro= ad=0A=C2=A0=0AI=0Alive in Colorado and will be using this plane as a cross = country traveler with=0Amy wife, so comfort is certainly a factor but not a= t all costs.=C2=A0 One=0Athought is to get one of those cooler-with-ice-and= -a-fan systems to toss in the=0Aback seat for those few days that are very = hot.=0A=C2=A0=0AI=0Aappreciate your input.=0A=C2=A0=0ADan=0AOlsen=0AFort=0A= Collins, CO=0AN320DK=0A=E2=80=93 640hrs=0AIV-P=0A=E2=80=93 10% done --1833503604-1260531101-1336137818=:37667 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hi Colyn
Yes-it worked out fine. By that- I mean- it was the best you= can do.
In the beginning, The pressurized IVs = had the cabin intercooler located on the side of the left lower cowling- wi= th louvers. The intake air was taken from the engine air cleaner box. Even = after moving the intercooler to the front/left side the air (thanks Don) in= to the cabin was measured at 105=C2=B0on the 70=C2=B0 day.
=
What I didn't say in the post yesterday was that selecting 11,00= 0 feet on the controller put an electrical signal to the outflow valve to o= pen it wide open. You also could use the "dump" switch to open the valve. T= hat helps a lot. But the big Issue is to shut off that 105=C2=B0 air from e= ntering the cabin.
I liked the idea of the Airfl= ow design--but I heard stories of airspeed penalties with the P51 scoop. I as= ked Bill Genevro if he had ever considered doing wind tunnel testing.Then t= hey did-- at Ohio University. They tucked the condenser up closer to the fu= selage and drag reduced drastically. I bought his system. At that time ther= e was no choice.  I did testing later and saw less than three knot cha= nge--. The only holes cut in the fuselage was a pair of 1 inch holes for fr= eon in and out of the condenser. The beautiful part of it, is that --it wor= ks. Very well! In all regimes.

=

Charlie K.
&n= bsp;
See me on the web at
www.Lancair-IV.com
 

From: Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
= Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 = 8:08 AM
Subject: [LML]= Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P?

=0A
Charlie, how did that work out?   You eventually added th= e airflow systems unit right?
Does that require a hole through the fuse= lage floor?

On May 3, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Charlie Koh= ler wrote:

<= div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:arial, helvetica,= sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
LML gang
In the years before AC was available, I developed a plan for Summer (hot) = flying. On take off I set the controller to 11,000 feet with t= he Pressurized air to the cabin OFF. I opened the air valve from the fresh = air from the vertical stabilizer.
=
I took off and climbed to 11,000 feet . At 10,0= 00 feet I closed the fresh aHim himir from the vertical stabilizer and grad= ually selected the pressurized air to the cabin to the ON position. Then as I continued to climb I selected the cruise altitude o= n the pressurization controller and adjusted the rate knob to 200 feet a mi= nute descent. The cabin would then descend and level off 1000 feet above se= lected altitude.
On the descent into the landing=0A = airport-- I set the controller to 1000 feet above field elevation.

Complicated maybe--but it&n= bsp; kept the hot turbocharged air out of the cabin until it was necessary.=
 
Charlie K.
 
=
See me on the web at
&= nbsp;

From: Jim Nordin <panel= maker@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
<= span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:2= 8 AM
Subject: [LML] Nec= essity of A/C in IV-P?

=0A
= =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
It can be really warn = even at 17,000 feet=0Awithout A/C in an IV-PT. Why? The bleed air is super = warm. Absolutely=0Anecessary? Not IMHO. But a few letdowns from 20k+ and a = drip drip drip off the=0Aend of your nose will tell you it=E2=80=99s nice. = Or in summer heat in Houston,=0APhoenix or some other sauna, it is even bet= ter than nice.
=0A=0A
Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be good to use that air=0Ato air heat exchanger in li= ne with the bleed air to the cabin? HEAVY.
=0A=0A
Jim
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
From:= Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=0AOf Dan & Kari Ol= sen
=0ASent: Wednesday, = May 02, 2012=0A11:05 AM
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=
=0ASubject: [LML] Neces= sity of A/C in=0AIV-P?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
LML=0AGang,
=0A=0A
&nb= sp;
=0A=0A
With=0Aall the = discussion of structural integrity compromises of the IV-P fuselage by=0Acu= tting air conditioning holes, I have a question for you seasoned IV-P=0Adri= vers=E2=80=A6  How necessary is air conditioning in this aircraft?
=0A=0A
 =0A=0A
I=0Ahave been flying my 320 for al= most 9 years now and certainly would love to have=0Ahad it during ground op= erations on hot summer days with the green house=0Acanopy.  However, o= nce moving and at altitude, there is no need.  I=0Arealize that the IV= -P is going to have warmer air because of the pressurization=0Abut it is al= so typically flying much higher (colder ambient) and it=0Adoesn=E2=80=99t h= ave the bubble canopy.
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
<= font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2">So,=0Ain= normal cross country cruise operations above FL180, do any of you that=0Ad= on=E2=80=99t have A/C *really* wish=0Athat you had it?
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
I= =E2=80=99m=0Aearly in the building of my IV-P and don=E2=80=99t want to put= it in for several=0Areasons:
=0A=0A
=C2=B7    &nb= sp;   =0AWeight
=0A=0A
=C2=B7  =       =0APotentia= l structural issues
=0A=0A
=C2=B7        =0A= Cost
=0A=0A
=C2=B7      &n= bsp; =0AOne more thing to break down the r= oad
=0A=0A
 
=0A= =0A
= I=0Alive in Colorado and will be using th= is plane as a cross country traveler with=0Amy wife, so comfort is certainl= y a factor but not at all costs.  One=0Athought is to get one of those= cooler-with-ice-and-a-fan systems to toss in the=0Aback seat for those few= days that are very hot.
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
I=0Aap= preciate your input.
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
Dan=0AOlse= n
=0A=0A
Fort=0ACollins, C= O
=0A=0A
N320DK=0A=E2=80= =93 640hrs
=0A=0A
<= font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2">IV-P=0A= =E2=80=93 10% done
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A




=
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