X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:53:08 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.200] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5491292 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:52:01 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=167.206.4.200; envelope-from=Adam@ValidationPartners.com Received: from VpiWorkstation1 (ool-4351a46d.dyn.optonline.net [67.81.164.109]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0M2S003XKSPJNXF0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:51:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:52:50 -0400 From: Adam Molny Subject: RE: [LML] Re: TCM starter adapter (was Excessive down hydraulic pressure) In-reply-to: X-Original-To: 'ED MARTIN' , 'Paul Miller' X-Original-Cc: lml@lancaironline.net X-Original-Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Qzqd0ndn7gcu9xsnnedNDQ)" Thread-index: Ac0fBwCqPzEY5LDIRgGYVf9wTVXJQAAN6ivA References: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Qzqd0ndn7gcu9xsnnedNDQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Wow, very astute, guys! The engine used an old 24v TCM boat-anchor style starter for the first 275 hours. I installed a 12v ST3 style starter back in 2006 and now have 10 hours on it. I'll get the exact part number from my starter and get in touch with SkyTec to see if it's up to the latest spec. Thanks for the great info! -Adam Molny _____ From: ED MARTIN [mailto:edmartintx@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:05 AM To: Paul Miller Cc: Adam@ValidationPartners.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: TCM starter adapter (was Excessive down hydraulic pressure) Paul ..... Ask him if he has the SkyTec ST5 or ST3 ?? The ST5 has the relay to disconnect the starter from the adapter after the engine starts .... but the ST3 does NOT. Doug & Randy have ST3 starters and both were beginning to slip as of last month. At KLAL show, Aero Specialities was recommending a new SkyTec ST5 AND an properly overhauled starter-adapter as the best solution. Ed ....... On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:21 AM, paul miller wrote: It depends on the Skytec model and what has been on as a starter since the replacement. If the same starter is on then you probably have the same issue and no matter which starter is on-- it won't get better. If you changed the starter at the same time as the adapter then which model is on there now? My research says 200-300 hours with a problematic starter is really good, I got 500 and was an ISKRA "poster pilot". Most fail much earlier in the 200 hour range and many Legacy owners seem to have swapped out adapter very early--mine before the plane even flew. The lightweight geared starters (ISKRA and some earlier Skytecs) have gearing friction which prevents the adapter spring from fully unwinding. My understanding of the issue is that you then fly a couple hundred hours while that spring wears down the clutch shaft. I have all the photos to show how that happens. The clearance grows and the problem magnifies. You have all the symptoms of soon being out of start capability and you want that to occur at your home airport not somewhere else because you need an engine hoist and a few weeks to repair or a few days to exchange adapters. The fix for the adapter is fairly straightforward and there are lots of options for repair, exchange etc. The starter issue must also be addressed. The newest Skytecs have a clutch that disengages the adapter and this is supposed to solve that problem. The older Presotlite and TCM starters have terrific start torque, no gearing and weigh more but they last forever. You get one of those from an overhaul shop that measures the break torque to a few in-ounces and that's the key to a long adapter life. They are also not expensive either. Best to determine the existing starter and see if you can determine if the adapter is standard, M15, M30 or M45 sizing. Go from there. Paul Legacy Spruce Creek On 4/19/2012 12:43 PM, Adam Molny wrote: Paul - boy, I hope not. I already have the lightweight Skytec starter, which is supposed to be friendly to the starter adapter. The starter adapter was replaced at 50 hours by the previous owner of this engine (it now has around 275hrs). I'll keep an eye on the situation to see if gets worse. I'm not aware of any options or choices to be made regarding the starter adapter. You simply have it rebuilt or replaced. Is that correct? Thanks, Adam Molny _____ --Boundary_(ID_Qzqd0ndn7gcu9xsnnedNDQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Wow, very astute, guys! The engine used an old 24v TCM boat-anchor style starter for the first 275 hours. I installed a 12v ST3 style starter back in 2006 and now have 10 hours on it. I’ll get the exact part number from my starter and get in touch with SkyTec to see if it’s up to the latest spec.

 

Thanks for the great info!

-Adam Molny

From: ED MARTIN [mailto:edmartintx@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:05 AM
To: Paul Miller
Cc: Adam@ValidationPartners.com
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: TCM starter adapter (was Excessive down hydraulic pressure)

 

      Paul ..... Ask him if he has the SkyTec ST5 or ST3 ??   The ST5 has the relay to disconnect the starter from the adapter after the engine starts .... but the ST3 does NOT.   Doug & Randy have ST3 starters and both were beginning to slip as of last month.   At KLAL show, Aero Specialities was recommending a new SkyTec ST5 AND an properly overhauled starter-adapter as the best solution.  Ed  .......                        

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:21 AM, paul miller <pjdmiller@gmail.com> wrote:

It depends on the Skytec model and what has been on as a starter since the replacement.   If the same starter is on then you probably have the same issue and no matter which starter is on-- it won't get better.  If you changed the starter at the same time as the adapter then which model is on there now?  My research says 200-300 hours with a problematic starter is really good, I got 500 and was an ISKRA "poster pilot".  Most fail much earlier in the 200 hour range and many Legacy owners seem to have swapped out adapter very early--mine before the plane even flew.

The lightweight geared starters (ISKRA and some earlier Skytecs) have gearing friction which prevents the adapter spring from fully unwinding.  My understanding of the issue is that you then fly a couple hundred hours while that spring wears down the clutch shaft.  I have all the photos to show how that happens.   The clearance grows and the problem magnifies.  You have all the symptoms of soon being out of start capability and you want that to occur at your home airport not somewhere else because you need an engine hoist and a few weeks to repair or a few days to exchange adapters.

The fix for the adapter is fairly straightforward and there are lots of options for repair, exchange etc.   The starter issue must also be addressed.  The newest Skytecs have a clutch that disengages the adapter and this is supposed to solve that problem.  The older Presotlite and TCM starters have terrific start torque, no gearing and weigh more but they last forever.  You get one of those from an overhaul shop that measures the break torque to a few in-ounces and that's the key to a long adapter life.  They are also not expensive either.

Best to determine the existing starter and see if you can determine if the adapter is standard, M15, M30 or M45 sizing.   Go from there.

Paul
Legacy
Spruce Creek

On 4/19/2012 12:43 PM, Adam Molny wrote:

Paul – boy, I hope not. I already have the lightweight Skytec starter, which is supposed to be friendly to the starter adapter. The starter adapter was replaced at 50 hours by the previous owner of this engine (it now has around 275hrs). I’ll keep an eye on the situation to see if gets worse.

 

I’m not aware of any options or choices to be made regarding the starter adapter. You simply have it rebuilt or replaced. Is that correct?

 

Thanks,

Adam Molny

 

 

 

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