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From: "Karen Farnsworth" <farnsworth@charter.net>
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Subject: RE: [LML] Performance specs
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Jim,
You say you have a Super ES. I think that means you are turbo charged and I
expect that means a TSIO-550.
It seems to me that most of the problems you will encounter with density
altitude would be negated by having a turbo charged engine. The one thing
that a turbo/supercharged engine won't change is the higher true airspeed
that is required to have the same indicated airspeed for normal "standard
day" operations.
Since the biggest factor causing degraded engine performance for normally
aspired engine is lower achievable manifold pressure, the turbo/supercharged
engine will maintain its rated manifold pressure to a much higher altitude
(either pressure or density) which means normal take-off performance in most
cases.
My TSIO-550 powered Super Legacy has a wide range of manifold pressure
(depending on where I set the waste gate controller) of 45" to 75" MP at sea
level. The net result is I push the throttle up until I get 38.5" MP and
don't worry what the pressure altitude is.
Maybe a little too casual for you but that is what I do in real life and
have not raised the "pucker factor" at all.
Lynn Farnsworth
Super Legacy #235
TSIO-559 Powered
Race #44
_____
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Scales
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Performance specs
_____
Guys,
I am trying to tweak my Super ES performance information and would like your
input on a couple of things.
I want to put together some charts/tables that let me calculate my plane's
performance relative to density altitude. The purpose of this information
gathering exercise is to put together a chart that can use realistic numbers
to help me calculate performance at higher elevations and density altitudes.
I want to do some flying out west and feel my tools are lacking where
performance calculations for my plane are concerned.
I have been able to gather quite a bit of info over the years of flying my
ES concerning climb rate, cruise, percentage of HP, as they are affected by
density altitude. These seem pretty clear.
My gray area is take-off distance. I have never actually done my own tests
in this area other than paying attention at my home airport about where down
the runway I start flying. If any of you have actual numbers for your ES I
would like to see them if you don't mind.
Consensus of information that I found on the internet and in Lancair
publications seems to be about a 700 ft ground roll on a standard day at sea
level for 3400 pound gw. This number appears unrealistic to me.
The standard procedure that I have seen in a couple of places seems to
require lifting the nose wheel around 55 and climbing at 85. Doesn't
mention holding brakes till full power. Can't seem to find information that
indicates when this method causes the plane to break ground. (Might be the
700 feet that is mentioned). This strikes me as an aggressive method (might
not be, just seems so to me given my experience in my plane). I am not a
test pilot and have no intention of flying at what might be the edge of the
envelope. I prefer a bit of a conservative number, whatever it might be.
I have tried this method on a few occasions and I find it somewhat
uncomfortable because the plane tends to settle in a tail low attitude after
becoming airborne and seems quite lazy even while still in ground effect. I
prefer crisp performance and firm response to control inputs. The 55/85
process doesn't seem to fit these preferences.
My method involves 10 degrees of flaps, deliberate, but not speedy,
application of power, slight back pressure on stick beginning about 65,
holding that pressure until plane flies off. Usually flying occurs at about
85-90 with no "sag" feeling and very positive control response. Climb out is
at 100 till 400 feet then 125-130 to altitude.
On an approximately standard day this results in wheels off the runway at
about 900 feet at about 3200 pounds. At gross of 3400 the number is about
1100. Again I have done no actual measurements, just judging by the
thousand foot marks on the runway.
I discovered the Koch Chart and found it to be really useful but it is all
based on a fairly accurate standard day gross weight ground roll.
So is it possible to put together a chart that can help me figure ground
roll and climb rate for various gross weight situations? Is one already
available that I just don't know about? The Koch Chart only requires ground
roll and climb rate for performance calculations relative to density
altitude.
Being a flatlander I have not ever been that concerned about this subject.
Always had plenty of runway and lots of horsepower. I don't want to be that
"loose" in my calculations when I encounter high density altitude
situations. I prefer to know what to expect as far as airplane performance
is concerned.
I am probably not able to adequately explain what it is that I am searching
for. I believe my primary need is a realistic standard day gross weigh
ground roll number that can be safely used to calculate density altitude
take off performance. Hopefully some of you can gather from what I have
written what else you think I need.
I appreciate any input you might have on this subject. I have not seen this
subject on LML so maybe I am not the only one who could use this
information.
Just trying to be safe.
Thanks,
Jim Scales (almost 1200 hours and very happy)
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You say you have a Super ES. I =
think that
means you are turbo charged and I expect that means a =
TSIO-550.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> It seems to me that most of =
the
problems you will encounter with density altitude would be negated by =
having a
turbo charged engine. The one thing that a turbo/supercharged engine =
won’t
change is the higher true airspeed that is required to have the same =
indicated
airspeed for normal “standard day” =
operations.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Since the biggest factor causing =
degraded
engine performance for normally aspired engine is lower achievable =
manifold
pressure, the turbo/supercharged engine will maintain its rated manifold =
pressure
to a much higher altitude (either pressure or density) which means =
normal
take-off performance in most cases.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My TSIO-550 powered Super Legacy =
has a
wide range of manifold pressure (depending on where I set the waste gate
controller) of 45” to 75” MP at sea level. The net result is =
I push
the throttle up until I get 38.5” MP and don’t worry what =
the
pressure altitude is.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Maybe a little too casual for you =
but that
is what I do in real life and have not raised the “pucker =
factor”
at all.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Lynn =
Farnsworth<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Super Legacy =
#235<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TSIO-559 =
Powered<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Race =
#44<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Lancair Mailing List</st1:PersonName> =
[mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Scales<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, December =
24, 2011
1:04 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
lml@lancaironline.net<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [LML] =
Performance specs</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></f=
ont></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter id=3DstopSpelling>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></f=
ont></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Guys,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I am trying to tweak my Super ES performance =
information
and would like your input on a couple of =
things.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I want to put together some charts/tables that let =
me
calculate my plane's performance relative to density altitude. The =
purpose
of this information gathering exercise is to put together a chart that =
can use
realistic numbers to help me calculate performance at higher elevations =
and
density altitudes. I want to do some flying out west and feel my =
tools
are lacking where performance calculations for my plane are =
concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I have been able to gather quite a bit of info over =
the
years of flying my ES concerning climb rate, cruise, percentage of HP, =
as they
are affected by density altitude. These seem pretty =
clear.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>My gray area is take-off distance. I have =
never
actually done my own tests in this area other than paying attention at =
my home
airport about where down the runway I start flying. If any of you have =
actual
numbers for your ES I would like to see them if you don't =
mind.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Consensus of information that I found on the =
internet and
in Lancair publications seems to be about a 700 ft ground roll on a =
standard
day at sea level for 3400 pound gw. This number appears =
unrealistic to
me. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>The standard procedure that I have seen in a couple =
of
places seems to require lifting the nose wheel around 55 and climbing at =
85.
Doesn't mention holding brakes till full power. Can't seem =
to find
information that indicates when this method causes the plane to break =
ground.
(Might be the 700 feet that is mentioned). This strikes me as an
aggressive method (might not be, just seems so to me given my experience =
in my
plane). I am not a test pilot and have no intention of flying at =
what
might be the edge of the envelope. I prefer a bit of a =
conservative
number, whatever it might be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I have tried this method on a few occasions and I =
find it
somewhat uncomfortable because the plane tends to settle in a tail low =
attitude
after becoming airborne and seems quite lazy even while still in ground =
effect.
I prefer crisp performance and firm response to control inputs. =
The 55/85
process doesn't seem to fit these =
preferences.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>My method involves 10 degrees of flaps, deliberate, =
but not
speedy, application of power, slight back pressure on stick beginning =
about 65,
holding that pressure until plane flies off. Usually flying occurs =
at
about 85-90 with no "sag" feeling and very positive control =
response.
Climb out is at 100 till 400 feet then 125-130 to altitude. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>On an approximately standard day this results in =
wheels off
the runway at about 900 feet at about 3200 pounds. At gross of =
3400 the
number is about 1100. Again I have done no actual measurements, =
just
judging by the thousand foot marks on the =
runway.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I discovered the Koch Chart and found it to be =
really
useful but it is all based on a fairly accurate standard day gross =
weight
ground roll.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>So is it possible to put together a chart that can =
help me
figure ground roll and climb rate for various gross weight situations? =
Is
one already available that I just don't know about? The Koch Chart =
only
requires ground roll and climb rate for performance calculations =
relative to
density altitude.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Being a flatlander I have not ever been that =
concerned
about this subject. Always had plenty of runway and lots of =
horsepower.
I don't want to be that "loose" in my calculations when =
I
encounter high density altitude situations. I prefer to know what =
to
expect as far as airplane performance is =
concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I am probably not able to adequately explain what it =
is
that I am searching for. I believe my primary need is a realistic
standard day gross weigh ground roll number that can be safely used to
calculate density altitude take off performance. Hopefully some of =
you
can gather from what I have written what else you think I =
need.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>I appreciate any input you might have on this =
subject.
I have not seen this subject on LML so maybe I am not the only one =
who
could use this information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Just trying to be safe.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>Jim Scales (almost 1200 hours and very =
happy)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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