X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 13:05:06 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from carbinge.com ([69.5.27.218] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with SMTP id 5265597 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:30:04 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.5.27.218; envelope-from=jbarrett@carbinge.com Received: (qmail 15554 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2011 01:29:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; s=default; d=carbinge.com; b=jScEUBxCdJXWtoAi8PXbnangSN9nzX+Qr9fOOWnUkkDHNzeA0kAfm8uFJzHYCq0ZtzsReyyrQ9RwKCzb3xs49tlobXMjD1TOaRs2TjOCvLkNNNtGjRfSyd0s5O4tyZ7sosDtWNwrY0+jUCpZHlthHKtKjxkAabNFRjklh4bmpU4=; X-Originating-IP: [24.143.114.8] Reply-To: From: "John Barrett" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved X-Original-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:29:26 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: <00c601ccafc8$ab86cd00$02946700$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCAF85.9D638D00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acyt5c54ju/GJwKcQfuyGk0id4kbJAB4YwTw Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCAF85.9D638D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crhis Z=E2=80=99s videos and his observations are interesting and = productive. He does not follow through with Carbinge to the same stage = he did with the aluminum extruded hinge. You can match fit pins to each = hinge and acquire a very snug fit with Carbinge as easily as you can use = a reamer to achieve a matched fit with the aluminum and SS welding rod. = I am admittedly biased in that my company produces Carbinge but I think = the sample that he showed indicates greater play in the stock aluminum = hinge vs the Carbinge sample. I suspect that this could vary somewhat = sample to sample, but we purposely strive to make our tolerances tighter = than the aluminum hinges. =20 It is quite possible that using the LPS2 lubricant could reduce or = remove the risk of corrosion with the aluminum hinges. I have not seen = examples of this or tried it out. However I have seen many, many = airplanes, my own spam cans included, that have dark streaks on the = airframe aft of every aluminum hinge on the airplane whether it is in a = trim tab, a flight control surface or a door. The experience in the = fleet is that these hinges do fret and corrode. It=E2=80=99s nice to = think that the above mentioned lubricant could eliminate that problem = across the entire aircraft fleet. =20 Thanks for the tip Chris. =20 John Barrett Leading Edge Composites www.carbinge.com =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Chris Zavatson Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:53 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 You might consider using LPS2 on your Carbinge hinge pins. This should = help with the corrosion and the need to use Scotchbright to clean them. = LPS2 has worked very well on the reamed aluminum/stainless combination. = I use it to clean/lube my hinges during each annual condition = inspection. Below is a link to a clip showing both new reamed hinge = material and a reamed aileron hinge after nine years and 850 hours TIS. = The aluminum hinges are on track to outlast everything else on the = airframe. =20 = http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/Ream850hours.wmv =20 Here is a comparison of four hinge options examined and tested several = years ago. =20 =20 = http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/HingePlayComparison-hires.wmv =20 Conclusions were: -The best fit was obtained using SS welding rod with MS20001 hinge = material. -Nylon or Teflon inserts or sleeves could not take high loads. (i.e. = asymmetric actuation such as outback flaps and inboard gear doors) They = would deform and creep and had to be replaced. (40,000 psi for aluminum = vs. 2,000 psi for Nylon) -SS welding rod had the highest load carrying capability of all the = options. -Time and use have proven the durability the MS20001/SS welding rod = combination to be outstanding. =20 =20 =20 Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.net =20 From: John Barrett To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:11 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved For any production hinges a tolerance is required between diameter of = the orifice and diameter of the pin in order to avoid having to reject = lots of parts that have too much friction. For this reason, the amount = of play in Carbinge vs aluminum is likely to be similar. In either = case, you can substitute different size pins in order to diminish the = play. =20 A major and important difference between the two is that with aluminum = hinges I don=E2=80=99t think you can avoid corrosive wear of the inside = diameter of the hinge over time. Therefore aluminum hinges will always = become looser over time and will tend to develop the play being = discussed even if during installation the parts are match fit to avoid = play. =20 Carbinge in our tests does not wear over time. The fit at installation = should remain the same. =20 =20 In either case, the pin itself can corrode. This will usually result in = the pin being more difficult to remove because of rust deposits on the = pin. It is good with Carbinge applications to occasionally remove the = pins and clean them with Scotchbrite before re-inserting. Stainless = Steel pins can decrease this concern but they tend to be more brittle = and can fail due to breakage in some applications. =20 Regards, John Barrett Leading Edge Composites =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = marv@lancair.net Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 Posted for "Bill Wade" : I agree. I=E2=80=99m using Carbinges on my IV-P MG doors and I thought = they had too=20 much play. I think the stock pins are suitable when you=E2=80=99re = attaching cowlings=20 or other curved surfaces but I wanted a tighter fit for use as a hinge,=20 especially if they=E2=80=99d be used for trim tabs. =20 I found a source for precision ground VAR stainless=20 http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vacuum-= arc/dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_1?sr=3D1-1&qid=3D1322133332&filterBy.materia= l_browse=3D16414=20 . I tried a range of diameters and found 0.083 was a good fit. = =E2=80=93Bill Wade =20 From: Chris Zavatson=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:05 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Subject: [Norton AntiSpam][LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 The elevator trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface = that can=20 really ruin your day. The goal for us should be to remove all play from = the=20 trim tab system. There are many ADs and service bulletins written = against=20 certified planes specifying the acceptable limits. We don't have the = luxury=20 of such a guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences = conveyed=20 by others that have stumbled across the edge. Unfortunately the = inherent play=20 in Carbinge is similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will not = improve=20 the situation described in Steve's post. =20 I think Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used = in the=20 tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab = hinge=20 (Randy, correct me if I am wrong). The spherical bearing can be = upgraded to=20 some made to tighter tolerances and with better alloys. =20 Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.net =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCAF85.9D638D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Crhis Z=E2=80=99s videos and his observations are interesting and = productive.=C2=A0 He does not follow through with Carbinge to the same = stage he did with the aluminum extruded hinge.=C2=A0 You can match fit = pins to each hinge and acquire a very snug fit with Carbinge as easily = as you can use a reamer to achieve a matched fit with the aluminum and = SS welding rod.=C2=A0 I am admittedly biased in that my company produces = Carbinge but I think the sample that he showed indicates greater play in = the stock aluminum hinge vs the Carbinge sample.=C2=A0 I suspect that = this could vary somewhat sample to sample, but we purposely strive to = make our tolerances tighter than the aluminum = hinges.

 

It is quite possible that using the LPS2 lubricant could reduce or = remove the risk of corrosion with the aluminum hinges.=C2=A0 I have not = seen examples of this or tried it out.=C2=A0 However I have seen many, = many airplanes, my own spam cans included, that have dark streaks on the = airframe aft of every aluminum hinge on the airplane whether it is in a = trim tab, a flight control surface or a door.=C2=A0 The experience in = the fleet is that these hinges do fret and corrode.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s = nice to think that the above mentioned lubricant could eliminate that = problem across the entire aircraft fleet.

 

Thanks for the tip Chris.

 

John Barrett

Leading Edge Composites

www.carbinge.com

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Chris Zavatson
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:53 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Legacy vibrations resolved

 

Y= ou might consider using LPS2 on your Carbinge hinge pins.  = This should help with the corrosion and the need to use = Scotchbright to clean them.  LPS2 has worked very well on the = reamed aluminum/stainless combination.  I use it to clean/lube my = hinges during each annual condition inspection.  Below is a link to = a clip showing both new reamed hinge material and a reamed aileron hinge = after nine years and 850 hours TIS.  The aluminum hinges = are on track to outlast everything else on the airframe.  =

<= a href=3D"http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/Ream850hours.wmv">http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/Ream850hours.wm= v

&= nbsp;

Here is a = comparison of four hinge options examined and tested several years = ago.  <= o:p>

&= nbsp;

<= a = href=3D"http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/HingePlayComparison-hires.wmv">http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/HingePlayCompar= ison-hires.wmv

&= nbsp;

Conclusions = were:<= o:p>

-The best fit was = obtained using SS welding rod with MS20001 hinge material.<= o:p>

-Nylon or Teflon = inserts or sleeves could not take high loads.  (i.e. asymmetric = actuation such as outback flaps and inboard gear doors)  = They would deform and creep and had to be replaced.  (40,000 = psi for aluminum vs. 2,000 psi for Nylon)<= o:p>

-SS welding = rod had the highest load carrying capability of all the = options.<= o:p>

-Time and use = have proven the durability the MS20001/SS welding rod = combination to be outstanding.  <= o:p>

&= nbsp;

 <= o:p>

Chris = Zavatson<= o:p>

N91CZ<= o:p>

360std<= o:p>

<= a href=3D"http://www.n91cz.net/" target=3D"_blank">www.N91CZ.net

=

<= o:p> 

F= rom: = John Barrett <jbarrett@carbinge.com>
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:11 = PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved

For any production hinges a tolerance is required between diameter of = the orifice and diameter of the pin in order to avoid having to reject = lots of parts that have too much friction.  For this reason, the = amount of play in Carbinge vs aluminum is likely to be similar.  In = either case, you can substitute different size pins in order to diminish = the play.

 

A major and important difference between the two is that with aluminum = hinges I don=E2=80=99t think you can avoid corrosive wear of the inside = diameter of the hinge over time.  Therefore aluminum hinges will = always become looser over time and will tend to develop the play being = discussed even if during installation the parts are match fit to avoid = play.

 

Carbinge in our tests does not wear over time.  The fit at = installation should remain the same. 

 

In either case, the pin itself can corrode.  This will usually = result in the pin being more difficult to remove because of rust = deposits on the pin.  It is good with Carbinge applications to = occasionally remove the pins and clean them with Scotchbrite before = re-inserting.  Stainless Steel pins can decrease this concern but = they tend to be more brittle and can fail due to breakage in some = applications.

 

Regards,
John Barrett

Leading Edge Composites

 

F= rom: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = marv@lancair.net
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Legacy vibrations resolved

 

P= osted for "Bill Wade" = <super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com>:

  I agree. = I=E2=80=99m using Carbinges on my IV-P MG doors and I thought they had = too
much play. I think the stock pins are suitable when = you=E2=80=99re attaching cowlings
or other curved surfaces but I = wanted a tighter fit for use as a hinge,
especially if = they=E2=80=99d be used for trim tabs.
 
  I found a = source for precision ground VAR stainless =
http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vac= uum-arc/dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_1?sr=3D1-1&qid=3D1322133332&filt= erBy.material_browse=3D16414
. I tried a range of diameters and = found 0.083 was a good fit. =E2=80=93Bill Wade
 
From: Chris = Zavatson
 Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:05 = PM
 To: lml@lancaironline.net
 Subject: [Norton = AntiSpam][LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved
 
 The = elevator trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface that can =
really ruin your day.  The goal for us should be to remove = all play from the
trim tab system.  There are many ADs and = service bulletins written against
certified planes specifying the = acceptable limits.  We don't have the luxury
of such a = guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences conveyed =
by others that have stumbled across the = edge.  Unfortunately the inherent play
in Carbinge is = similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will not improve
the = situation described in Steve's post.  
 I think = Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used in the =
tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab = hinge
(Randy, correct me if I am wrong).  The spherical = bearing can be upgraded to
some made to tighter tolerances and with = better alloys.
 
 Chris = Zavatson
 N91CZ
 360std
 www.N91CZ.net  
 

 

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