X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:51:14 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-db01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with ESMTP id 5262180 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:11:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.95; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.10]) by imr-db01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id pASHAfQq014472 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:10:41 -0500 Received: from core-mtb004a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtb004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.234.205]) by mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 5A2C0E000090 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:10:41 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <59a9b.2d7d73d5.3c051a91@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:10:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_59a9b.2d7d73d5.3c051a91_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [24.1.9.48] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:467016768:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290a4ed3c0915418 --part1_59a9b.2d7d73d5.3c051a91_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Chris, =20 You are way too neat. I agree with everything you have said. I did try= =20 the Teflon spaghetti trick and it does deform and creep leaving one with = =20 even looser hinges. I switched to the 3/32 SS rod years ago on your =20 suggestion have enjoyed nice tight hinges ever since. While I used the re= am for a=20 few burrs on older hinges, it is unnecessary on new MS hinges although the= =20 fitting is a bit snug. Of course, grinding a gentle point into one end of= =20 the pin made easier insertion for the relatively short hinge sections on t= he=20 LNC2.=20 =20 As to neatness, my control surface hinges are hidden beneath Mylar gap =20 seals and never get lubricated. All my trim is controlled internal to the= =20 aircraft so there are no tabs. =20 Scott =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 11/28/2011 10:56:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, =20 chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes: =20 You might consider using LPS2 on your Carbinge hinge pins. This should=20 help with the corrosion and the need to use Scotchbright to clean them. = =20 LPS2 has worked very well on the reamed aluminum/stainless combination. I = use=20 it to clean/lube my hinges during each annual condition inspection. Below= =20 is a link to a clip showing both new reamed hinge material and a reamed=20 aileron hinge after nine years and 850 hours TIS. The aluminum hinges are= on=20 track to outlast everything else on the airframe. =20 _http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/Ream850hours.wmv_=20 (http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/Ream850hours.wmv)=20 =20 Here is a comparison of four hinge options examined and tested several=20 years ago. =20 =20 _http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/HingePlayComparison-hires.wmv_=20 (http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/HingePlayComparison-hires.wmv)=20 =20 Conclusions were: -The best fit was obtained using SS welding rod with MS20001 hinge =20 material. -Nylon or Teflon inserts or sleeves could not take high loads. (i.e.=20 asymmetric actuation such as outback flaps and inboard gear doors) They w= ould=20 deform and creep and had to be replaced. (40,000 psi for aluminum vs.=20 2,000 psi for Nylon) -SS welding rod had the highest load carrying capability of all the =20 options. -Time and use have proven the durability the MS20001/SS welding rod=20 combination to be outstanding. =20 =20 =20 Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std _www.N91CZ.net_ (http://www.n91cz.net/)=20 =20 From: John Barrett To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:11 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 =20 =20 For any production hinges a tolerance is required between diameter of the= =20 orifice and diameter of the pin in order to avoid having to reject lots of= =20 parts that have too much friction. For this reason, the amount of play in= =20 Carbinge vs aluminum is likely to be similar. In either case, you can=20 substitute different size pins in order to diminish the play. =20 A major and important difference between the two is that with aluminum=20 hinges I don=E2=80=99t think you can avoid corrosive wear of the inside di= ameter of=20 the hinge over time. Therefore aluminum hinges will always become looser= =20 over time and will tend to develop the play being discussed even if during= =20 installation the parts are match fit to avoid play. =20 Carbinge in our tests does not wear over time. The fit at installation=20 should remain the same. =20 =20 In either case, the pin itself can corrode. This will usually result in= =20 the pin being more difficult to remove because of rust deposits on the pin= . =20 It is good with Carbinge applications to occasionally remove the pins and= =20 clean them with Scotchbrite before re-inserting. Stainless Steel pins can= =20 decrease this concern but they tend to be more brittle and can fail due to = =20 breakage in some applications. =20 Regards, John Barrett Leading Edge Composites =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =20 marv@lancair.net Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 =20 Posted for "Bill Wade" : I agree. I=E2=80=99m using Carbinges on my IV-P MG doors and I thought the= y had=20 too=20 much play. I think the stock pins are suitable when you=E2=80=99re attachi= ng=20 cowlings=20 or other curved surfaces but I wanted a tighter fit for use as a hinge,=20 especially if they=E2=80=99d be used for trim tabs. I found a source for precision ground VAR stainless =20 http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vacuum-ar= c /dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_1?sr=3D1-1&qid=3D1322133332&filterBy.material_bro= wse=3D164 14 =20 . I tried a range of diameters and found 0.083 was a good fit. =E2=80=93Bil= l Wade From: Chris Zavatson=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:05 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Subject: [Norton AntiSpam][LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved The elevator trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface that= =20 can=20 really ruin your day. The goal for us should be to remove all play from = =20 the=20 trim tab system. There are many ADs and service bulletins written against= =20 certified planes specifying the acceptable limits. We don't have the=20 luxury=20 of such a guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences=20 conveyed=20 by others that have stumbled across the edge. Unfortunately the inherent= =20 play=20 in Carbinge is similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will not=20 improve =20 the situation described in Steve's post. =20 I think Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used in= =20 the=20 tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab hinge = =20 (Randy, correct me if I am wrong). The spherical bearing can be upgraded= =20 to=20 some made to tighter tolerances and with better alloys. Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std _www.N91CZ.net_ (http://www.n91cz.net/) =20 --part1_59a9b.2d7d73d5.3c051a91_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Chris,
 
You are way too neat.  I agree with everything you have said.&nbs= p; I=20 did try the Teflon spaghetti trick and it does deform and creep leaving one= with=20 even looser hinges.  I switched to the 3/32 SS rod years ago on your= =20 suggestion have enjoyed nice tight hinges ever since.  While I used th= e=20 ream for a few burrs on older hinges, it is unnecessary on new MS hinges=20 although the fitting is a bit snug.  Of course, grinding a gentle= =20 point into one end of the pin made easier insertion for the relatively= =20 short hinge sections on the LNC2.
 
As to neatness, my control surface hinges are hidden beneath Mylar gap= =20 seals and never get lubricated.  All my trim is controlled intern= al to=20 the aircraft so there are no tabs.
 
Scott   
 
In a message dated 11/28/2011 10:56:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes:
=
You might consider using LPS2 on yo= ur=20 Carbinge hinge pins.  This should help with t= he=20 corrosion and the need to use Scotchbright to clean them. =20 LPS2 has worked very well on the reamed aluminum/stainless combina= tion.=20  I use it to clean/lube my hinges during each annual=20 condition inspection.  Below is a link to a clip showing both new reamed hinge materia= l and a=20 reamed aileron hinge after nine years and 850 hours=20 TIS.  The aluminum hinges are on track t= o=20 outlast everything else on the airframe. =20
= http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/Ream= 850hours.wmv
 
Here=20 is a comparison of four hinge options examined and tested several years= =20 ago. 
=  
 
Conclusions were:
-The=20 best fit was obtained using SS welding rod with MS20001 hinge=20 material.
-Nylon or Teflon inserts or sleeves= could=20 not take high loads.  (i.e. asymmetric actuation such as=20 outback flaps and inboard gear doors)  They would deform a= nd=20 creep and had to be replaced.  (40,000 psi for aluminum vs. 2,000 ps= i for=20 Nylon)
-SS=20 welding rod had the highest load carrying capability of all the= =20 options.
-Time and use have proven the= =20 durability the MS20001/SS welding rod combination to be outstanding. 
 
 
= Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net

<= B>From: John Barrett=20 <jbarrett@carbinge.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
<= SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:= 11=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: = Legacy=20 vibrations resolved

For = any=20 production hinges a tolerance is required between diameter of the orifice= and=20 diameter of the pin in order to avoid having to reject lots of parts that= have=20 too much friction.  For this reason, the amount of play in Carbinge = vs=20 aluminum is likely to be similar.  In either case, you can substitut= e=20 different size pins in order to diminish the play.
 
A ma= jor and=20 important difference between the two is that with aluminum hinges I don= =E2=80=99t=20 think you can avoid corrosive wear of the inside diameter of the hinge ov= er=20 time.  Therefore aluminum hinges will always become looser over time= and=20 will tend to develop the play being discussed even if during installation= the=20 parts are match fit to avoid play.
 
Carb= inge in=20 our tests does not wear over time.  The fit at installation should r= emain=20 the same. 
 
In e= ither=20 case, the pin itself can corrode.  This will usually result in the p= in=20 being more difficult to remove because of rust deposits on the pin. = It=20 is good with Carbinge applications to occasionally remove the pins and cl= ean=20 them with Scotchbrite before re-inserting.  Stainless Steel pins can= =20 decrease this concern but they tend to be more brittle and can fail due t= o=20 breakage in some applications.
 
Rega= rds,
John=20 Barrett
Lead= ing=20 Edge Composites
 
From: Lancair Mailing Lis= t=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 marv@lancair.net
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11=20 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subjec= t:=20 [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved
 
Posted for "Bill Wad= e"=20 <super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com>:

  I agree. I=E2=80=99m= using=20 Carbinges on my IV-P MG doors and I thought they had too
much play. I= =20 think the stock pins are suitable when you=E2=80=99re attaching cowlings =
or other=20 curved surfaces but I wanted a tighter fit for use as a hinge,
especi= ally=20 if they=E2=80=99d be used for trim tabs.
 
  I found a so= urce for=20 precision ground VAR stainless=20
http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vac= uum-arc/dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_1?sr=3D1-1&qid=3D1322133332&filter= By.material_browse=3D16414=20
. I tried a range of diameters and found 0.083 was a good fit. =E2=80= =93Bill=20 Wade
 
From: Chris Zavatson
 Sent: Wednesday, Novembe= r 23,=20 2011 10:05 PM
 To: lml@lancaironline.net
 Subject: [Nort= on=20 AntiSpam][LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved
 
 The elev= ator=20 trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface that can
reall= y=20 ruin your day.  The goal for us should be to remove all play fr= om=20 the
trim tab system.  There are many ADs and service bullet= ins=20 written against
certified planes specifying the acceptable=20 limits.  We don't have the luxury
of such a guidance and th= us=20 only find the limits through experiences conveyed
by others that have= =20 stumbled across the edge.  Unfortunately the inherent play
= in=20 Carbinge is similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will not impro= ve=20
the situation described in Steve's post.  
 I think= =20 Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used in the
= tail=20 of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab hinge=20
(Randy, correct me if I am wrong).  The spherical bearing c= an be=20 upgraded to
some made to tighter tolerances and with better=20 alloys.
 
 Chris=20 Zavatson
 N91CZ
 360std
 www.N91CZ.net  
 



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