X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:29:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [205.186.160.203] (HELO server.rmcginc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5019166 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Jun 2011 14:06:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.186.160.203; envelope-from=r.rickard@rcginc-us.com Received: (qmail 28528 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2011 11:06:08 -0700 Received: from 24-107-105-58.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com (HELO ?192.168.1.17?) (24.107.105.58) by rmcomserver.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2011 11:06:08 -0700 References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8J3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--1031312792 X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8J3) From: Bob Rickard Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner. X-Original-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:06:07 -0500 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-2--1031312792 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I am a 4P TSIO 550E guy. I don't have a plenum. I personally use the climb technique mentioned below every time I fly, as I a= m usually flying long distance (> 1000nm). I takeoff full power (38.5MAP, 4= 3-45gph, 2700 rpm) and keep that to the level off point, usually FL 180-220.= I then run 34" MAP, 2500 RPM, and lean 100deg LOP which usually results in= 17-18 gph. I don't touch the motor again until near the pattern and need t= o slow down. My motor stays below 380 in the climb on all cylinders unless i= t's super hot out, at which point I level off for a few minutes half way up,= let er cool down, then finish the climb. My climb airspeed is 165 kcas to 1= 5,000 then 160 the rest of the way. I could climb faster, but the key is to= get air over the motor. Climb rate varies obviously with gross weight and t= emp, and is well over 1000 fpm, but it would not be if I climbed LOP. I use= this technique to get high and LOP as soon as possible, and routinely get 4= .5 hours sortie duration or longer. I am curious about the " not many feel comfortable with that" comment. It's= what I was taught and nobody has ever mentioned it is a "bad" technique. O= pen to comments as to other techniques and why they are used. Bob Rickard On Jun 13, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Colyn Case wrote: > The IVP will climb much faster but you have to have excellent cooling and v= ery high fuel flow to do it. George Braly did a seminar on engine cooling= back a few years which I think is captured here in the archives somewhere. = My main take-aways on cooling: you must have the exhaust tunnel extensio= ns and you must insure that cooling air is guided around the bottom side of E= VERY cylinder. The fuel flow specification is in the TCM document but it e= nds up being 43+ gph at 38"/2700rpm. =20 >=20 > Put all that together and you can climb 2000 fpm at 140 knots and still be= below 380 dF on the cylinders. Not many people feel comfortable doing th= at though.... >=20 > What power settings does a velocity need to do that? >=20 > Colyn >=20 > On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >=20 >> Wow, this was just a great answer, not based on emotions but just pure ca= lculations. Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owners do not go h= igher then 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also because the clim= b does take a long time. >>=20 >> I have sit in a few Lancair 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that the c= limb rate is not really that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old velocity e= asy did 1800-2000fpm (but at 145 IAS). >>=20 >> Now I understand you guys go faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then to Le= vel 250 take about 23 min. (more or less, they never let you go direct, righ= t?) >>=20 >> Anybody has better numbers or better climb performance tips? >>=20 >> From: Colyn Case >> Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List >> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:23 -0400 >> To: >> Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p o= wner. >>=20 >> Another comment on winglets. >>=20 >> My theory is the most important speed is your SL speed. >> Suppose you are flying 1350 nautical miles. >> Westbound you have a 40 knot headwind at 5000 increasing to 100 knots at f= l200. >> Eastbound let's say you get a 40 knot tailwind at fl200. (Doesn't it us= ually work out that way?) >>=20 >> Someone offers you mod A that gives you 10 knots at 5000 or mod B that gi= ves you 10 knots at fl200. >> ...and let's say your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodified. >>=20 >> mod A gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvement which you enjoy for 6.9 h= ours >> mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2% improvement which you enjoy for 4.2 h= ours >>=20 >>=20 >> So even if the winglets delivered performance up high they don't seem lik= e a very good deal. >>=20 >> Colyn >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hello guys. >>>> =20 >>>> I like to introduce myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus >>>> SR22 (1100 hours) and Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane) >>>> (total 1400 hours). >>>> =20 >>>> I am a future Lancair 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if >>>> you know someone who wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few= >>>> Lancair 4p already. >>>> =20 >>>> Now about the winglets (my first question); >>>> Some planes I looked at had their winglets, some not. All those that di= d not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me i= t works great, >>>> more stability etc, even the CAFE report is telling that it produces >>>> more stability at higher altitude. >>>> =20 >>>> But=E2=80=A6even the big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything= but more >>>> drag...thus less speed. >>>> =20 >>>> I have no experience whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to yo= u >>>> guys is, do you have any experience telling you that it does work? (thi= s >>>> is more for pilots who had both so they can tell the difference) >>>> =20 >>>> Thanks -- Ronald Stevens >>>=20 >>> =20 >>> >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-2--1031312792 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I am a 4P TSIO 550E guy.  I don't h= ave a plenum.

I personally use the climb technique m= entioned below every time I fly, as I am usually flying long distance (> 1= 000nm).  I takeoff full power (38.5MAP, 43-45gph, 2700 rpm) and keep th= at to the level off point, usually FL 180-220.  I then run 34" MAP, 250= 0 RPM, and lean 100deg LOP which usually results in 17-18 gph.  I don't= touch the motor again until near the pattern and need to slow down.  M= y motor stays below 380 in the climb on all cylinders unless it's super hot o= ut, at which point I level off for a few minutes half way up, let er cool do= wn, then finish the climb.  My climb airspeed is 165 kcas to 15,000 the= n 160 the rest of the way.  I could climb faster, but the key is to get= air over the motor.  Climb rate varies obviously with gross weight and= temp, and is well over 1000 fpm, but it would not be if I climbed LOP. &nbs= p;I use this technique to get high and LOP as soon as possible, and routinel= y get 4.5 hours sortie duration or longer.

I am cur= ious about the " not many feel comfortable with that" comment.  It's wh= at I was taught and nobody has ever mentioned it is a "bad" technique.  = ;Open to comments as to other techniques and why they are used.

Bob Rickard


On Jun 13, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Colyn C= ase <colyncase@earthlink.net> wrote:



=

On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:50 AM, RONALD STEVENS wrote:
<= br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
Wow, this was just a great answer, not based on emotions but= just pure calculations. Like to add that I have seen that a lot of 4p owner= s do not go higher then 18000ft (VFR 17500), and that this might be also bec= ause the climb does take a long time.

I have sit in= a few Lancair 4p's now and one thing I noticed is that the climb rate is no= t really that great. (1000-1400 fpm), while my old velocity easy did 1800-20= 00fpm (but at 145 IAS).

Now I understand you guys g= o faster (+/- IAS 160) but climbing then to Level 250 take about 23 min. (mo= re or less, they never let you go direct, right?)

A= nybody has better numbers or better climb performance tips?

From: Colyn Case <= colyncase@earthlink.net>
Repl= y-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:55:= 23 -0400
To: <lml@lanca= ironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Winglets? And introducing myself as a very near future 4p owner.
=

Another comment on win= glets.

My theory is the most important speed is your SL s= peed.
Suppose you are flying 1350 nautical miles.
Westbo= und you have a 40 knot headwind at 5000 increasing to 100 knots at fl200.
Eastbound let's say you get a 40 knot tailwind at fl200.   (Doe= sn't it usually work out that way?)

Someone offers y= ou mod A that gives you 10 knots at 5000 or mod B that gives you 10 knots at= fl200.
...and let's say your plane does 225 knots at 5000 unmodif= ied.

mod A gives you 10/(225-40) or 5.4% improvemen= t which you enjoy for 6.9 hours
mod B gives you 10/(270+40) or 3.2= % improvement which you enjoy for 4.2 hours


So even if the winglets delivered performance up high they don't see= m like a very good deal.

Colyn

=

On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:18 PM, RONALD STEVENS wro= te:

Hello guys.
 
I like to introduc= e myself, I am 50, European/American, former Cirrus
SR22 (1100 hours) a= nd Velocity TXL5 (250 hours, just sold this plane)
(total 1400 hours).
 
I am a future Lanc= air 4p owner (looking to buy one these weeks, so if
you know someone w= ho wants to sell his let me know) and looked at a few
Lancair 4p already.
 
Now about the wing= lets (my first question);
Some planes I look= ed at had their winglets, some not. All those that did not had one told me it doesn't do anything, the ones they had did told me it works great,
more stability etc= , even the CAFE report is telling that it produces
more stability at h= igher altitude.
 
But=E2=80=A6even t= he big Charlie Kohler told me it doesn't add anything but more
drag...thus less speed.
 
I have no experien= ce whatsoever with the Winglets. So my question to you
guys is, do you ha= ve any experience telling you that it does work? (this
is more for pilots= who had both so they can tell the difference)
 
Thanks -- Ronald Stevens
 
<= /div>
<glasair new pnt.jpg><AC home a= fter painting 001.jpg>


= --Apple-Mail-2--1031312792--