Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #58421
From: swaid rahn <indigoaviation@gmail.com>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 16:47:41 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
The last time I checked in 1930 the TSIO-550 Teledyne engine was not developed yet. I don't think the Lancair 4P would have been anywhere as successful if Lance tried to use a converted V8 automotive engine in the Lancair 4P program. Continental has continuously improved and engineered an ever improving power plant for today's modern aircraft. In fact the Continental factory took Jack Hickham's 4P down to Mobile Al. to the engine factory and did all of his flight testing free of charge for him because he was one of the first to use the FADEC system on his aircraft. Continental engineers flew and perfected the FADEC on his airframe and used the data toward the certification of FADEC. I know this as fact, I did Jack"s EAA tech Counselor visits and I also weighted his aircraft and did his initiall weight and balance for him.
 Also what kind of Quality Improvement Process do you have with Auto Engine Conversions. You want get any help from Detroit as nothing is stock anyway not to mention there liability position. The FAA has this thing called FAR 39, it's the A.D. regulation and yes we hate em cause they cost us money but it saves lives and property. Plus there is a fleet of engines to gather data on and work out the kinks.
 Then you have the fact that when your acft breaks out of town, you would be lucky to find any support at the airport for that conversion. And no I am not speaking bad about A&P mechanics because I am one also (A&P,I.A.) what I am saying is you will have something very exotic without any good data to reference and will take much longer to trouble shoot and find the right parts for repair.
Then there is the safety issue. Don't try to fool yourself into thinking Converted V8's are ANYWHERE as safe as certified aircraft engines. You also have all of the unproven systems to make the engine run as additional failure points. We had a Vesta V8 in a RV-10 almost kill a Pilot and his daughter in Ridgeland S.C. It had a cockpit fire (total loss) on the taxiway after landing and they almost did not get out alive. It was only a fuel line but he lost years of effort and thousand of dollars, he was extremely lucky it could have been worse! I also did his Weight and Balance. They were 350 LBS. MORE THAN THE AIRCRAFT ENGINE MODEL RV-10! The owners were upset to say the least.
 Weight and Balance issues. Always heaver, see above.
Cost. The owners of N450HP had over 85 thousand in the firewall fwd package of their EngineAir V8.
The above reasons are why we removed an EngineAir V8 from N450HP.
Don't dismiss the safety record of a certified engine, alot of it was paid for in blood. 
The choice of engine decision should not be taken lightly. There is much at risk: money, time, safety, reliability to think about.
 
Swaid Rahn

On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 8:32 AM, <tednoel@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
While I am confident the Eagle V8 will do well, based on the designer and many bits of the internals, it has proven very expensive and time-consuming. Check in on the FlyRotary email list (Marv runs it). There are rotaries of the appropriate power flying with good records. Many of the headaches have already had their aspirin taken. Unless you are a bit of a masochist (which I didn't think I was), unfortunately the 1930's boat anchors remain the "safe" choice.

Ted Noel


---- Rod Pharis <rpharis@verizon.net> wrote:
> Many years back an apparently qualified and well healed small company began
> development of a 572 cid Chevy big-block engine converted for aircraft
> applications, including a less expensive replacement for certain turboprop
> power-plants.  They spent piles of money and many years of work, including a
> special speed reduction unit.  In the end, not a single original part was
> retained, including the spark plugs.  The company was in poor financial
> health at that point, and I believe another company bought that company and
> the rights, and they apparently did no better with the project even though
> they inherited many lessons learned from the first owners.  As far as I can
> tell, the project was abandoned.  A single guy would have little chance at
> success with a one-off attempt.  Don't even think about it!!!!!!!!!!!  Even
> a small modification to an existing successful airplane engine would likely
> take deep pockets to be successful.
>
> Rod Pharis
>
> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Gary
> Casey
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:23 AM
> To: lml@lancaironline.net
> Subject: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine
>
> I have read with interest many of the posts on this subject.  I too, had
> considered an automotive engine to the point I acquired the engine and
> designed most of the systems.  I was convinced (and still am) that an
> automotive V8 run inverted, turbocharged with direct drive to the prop could
> do an effective job.  But....
> Brent makes many good points and I agree with them, but engines are
> inanimate objects and don't respond to the intent of the designers - they
> only respond to the details of the design itself.  So what makes the
> liquid-cooled automotive engine inappropriate for an aircraft application?
> Liquid cooling helps, as a smaller bore with cooler surface temperatures
> allow a higher compression ratio, but the slower-running large displacement
> aircraft engine has lower friction, negating the benefit of the higher
> compression ratio.  An efficient radiator can cool with less pressure drop,
> but it requires about twice the air flow of an air-cooled engine.  The
> liquid-cooled engine can be more compact, reducing the frontal area, but the
> frontal area of a side-by-side seating aircraft is usually determined by the
> cabin, not the engine.  The list goes on.
>
> Is the aircraft engine old-fashioned?  The configuration has been around for
> a long, long time, but that doesn't have much to do with the effectiveness
> of the engine.  The engineers at Lycoming and Continental have cherry-picked
> the technologies developed by others that apply to aircraft engines, and
> developed some of their own.  Bottom line?  I'm happy with the 50-year-old
> Lycoming in my ES.  And while I usually wish for a turbocharger when getting
> out of my 3800 ft, 7000 ft elevation runway, once in the air the fuel
> efficiency of the high-compression, naturally-aspirated engine is nice.
>
> Gary Casey
> ES #157, naturally aspirated Lyc IO-540


--



--
Swaid L. Rahn
Indigo Aviation, Inc.
940 Mock Road
Springfield, Ga. 31329
Cell 912.655.0966


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